Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Someone was asking how the Liberals stand on this issue. I think most of us agree, because the Liberal government brought forward particular bills in the past on Senate reform.
One can't dismiss the concept of process in this, and bringing a process from a group of people who believe there should be reform of the Senate. Many of us who spoke very movingly in favour of the Charlottetown accord in the old days, as I did, certainly look at some of the triple-E reforms we talked about. The question is, how do we do this?
We know that scholars have sat on one side or the other of this debate. In 1980, the Supreme Court said that Parliament could not change the fundamental characteristics of the Senate without first getting the Senate to agree that this should be done. Then we had the 1982 Constitution Act, in which it was said that one could amend the Constitution with regard to the Senate, but there was a way of doing it. The process had to have three conditions, and I would like to add that those conditions were fulfilled in the Charlottetown accord. They said that at least two-thirds of the provinces must agree, the Senate must agree, and a minimum of 50% of the population of those provinces must agree.
When we talk about democratic change, we have to ask ourselves first and foremost whether the end justifies the means. If we don't look at what the Constitution tells us we should do, or if you want to sit on the other side and look at what the Supreme Court says we should do, then we need to have a different process. I don't believe that Parliament has it in its power to do this alone. The whole way of amending the Senate, as set out in the Constitution Act, is a good one.
My question comes back to what everyone says. We cannot—no matter how much we wish to as government—do something that is unconstitutional unless we're prepared to open up the Constitution and go into that big debate. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that; however, we can look at many different ways of electing the Senate and of achieving a new type of Senate reform that don't have to go against the constitutional amending processes.
My big question is whether this is the appropriate way to go about it. Is this legislative Bill C-20 an appropriate way? How do we go about getting two-thirds of provinces and 50% of the people to agree? How do we get the Senate to agree?
We cannot do this on our own, and that is my point. Much as I would like to see the triple-E Senate looked at, this is not the process. My concern is that when we speak of democracy we do not do something that is fundamentally undemocratic.