Bill C-20 (39th Parliament, 2nd Session) Committee on April 9th, 2008

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

For example, could the Conservative or Liberal Party—because that is a more credible scenario—explicitly ask donors, who are only allowed to give so much, to make donations to Liberal or Conservative Senate nominees, beyond a certain monetary level has been exceeded?

[Marc Mayrand]

I don't think that would be prohibited—at least not according to my reading of the current provisions. The legislation prohibits the transfer of funds from one party or entity to a nominee.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

So, they could invite contributors to do this individually, while still abiding by the rules.

If elections for both the House of Commons and the Senate are to be held at the same time, and they have a common platform—because the Senate nominees would be running under the same party label, in my opinion, that would contravene the spirit of the legislation.

[Marc Mayrand]

It does raise some difficult issues.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Such as the fact that there is no spending limit.

Finally, there is a matter of air time. You did not refer to this, and I know that the legislation provides for public air time in the case of federal elections. Could that also present a problem? Is anything provided for in that regard? I am asking you the question without knowing the answer.

[Marc Mayrand]

That is a very interesting question. I do not remember seeing any provision whatsoever dealing with that. If that were to happen, it would have to be done mutatis mutandis. Would the provisions of the relevant part of the Elections Act apply? And, how would they apply to a consultation?

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

We would still be facing the same problem: some Senate nominees would be running under the banner of a political party that would also be taking part in general elections for the House of Commons.

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

If there is air time given… So, although you didn't raise this, it could be a very real problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Albina Guarnieri]

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm very pleased that you are here today to help us work through this process. You've certainly provided a very interesting perspective for us as we try to understand exactly what this consultation process would look like and what impacts it would have.

We've looked at other Senate models around the world. There are some countries that have abolished the Senate, there are some that have elected the Senate, and there are some--very few--that believe it should be based on the peerage.

What we're looking at here is not so much electing a Senate but setting up a consultation process that may or may not be enacted. The Prime Minister may choose to bring forward a process or he may not, and the person who wins the popular vote may not necessarily be the one chosen.

Are you aware of any other system in the world that has a democratic election based on such a principle?

[Marc Mayrand]

Personally, I'm not aware of other systems like this.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I see.

Involving Elections Canada in such a consultation would certainly bring a lot of credibility. When Elections Canada puts its imprimatur on something, it's as legitimate as it can get.

Have you looked into the legal implications of a candidate who spends $300,000 or $400,000, wins the popular vote in a process that is declared by Elections Canada to be a de facto election, and then is not chosen? Have you looked into the legal implications? Would there be a possible challenge?

[Marc Mayrand]

Do you mean if a selected nominee is not appointed? I haven't looked at that. That's where my jurisdiction would end, I believe. That would be an issue, because that decision remains with the Prime Minister--the Governor General, in fact, on the advice of the Prime Minister.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm interested because it's not the Prime Minister holding this consultation, although he calls it. Elections Canada has been asked to act as a monitor to show the legitimacy of it, yet at the end of the day the Prime Minister can say he doesn't want that one and is going to choose this one.

Have you had any legal advice at all on the role of Elections Canada?

[Marc Mayrand]

We have not had any per se, not in that specific respect.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Have you had any legal advice on whether this consultation process is really skirting the constitutional line, in that if the Prime Minister did call it every time and if he had to accept the elected choice, that is certainly going beyond the prerogative that is laid down constitutionally. Have you looked at whether this would withstand any kind of constitutional challenge?

[Marc Mayrand]

No. I leave it to Parliament and to the government to design the legislation. My responsibility is strictly to administer it, and once it is adopted by Parliament, I apply it with the presumption that it is constitutional.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You had given us a figure of what it would cost you to prepare for one of these consultations. Is that to be always ready to go across Canada? How much is that figure? Could you repeat that figure?

[Marc Mayrand]

It's between $100 million and $150 million. It's to put the system and the process in place, and the tools. Again there are many variables there in terms of a specific event, such as whether it's run in conjunction with a provincial election, whether it's run with harmonized rules or with separate rules, or whether it's all in conjunction with the federal general election. Those variables would have a significant impact at times on the cost.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So the cost to set up a possible consultation would be between $100 million and $150 million, and whether to call it or not would be left to the prerogative of the Prime Minister?

[Marc Mayrand]

To be ready to run a consultation, we estimate you would need, with the STV system, between $100 million and $150 million.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So that's what we need up front. Now we want to go into one of these consultation processes. Have you figured out what it would cost, say, for the province of Ontario?

[Marc Mayrand]

We have not at this point. We're not that far ahead in our planning or costing.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Would you be able to come back at another point and give us those figures?