Evidence of meeting #16 for Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was radio.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvie Courtemanche  Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters
Brad Phillips  President, Vice-President of British Columbia Operations, Astral Radio, British Columbia Association of Broadcasters
Mike Keller  Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Newcap Radio Inc.
Gabriel Van Loon  Lawyer, Canadian Association of Broadcasters
Guy Banville  Radio Consultant, As an Individual
Ross Davies  Vice-President, Programming and Operations, Haliburton Broadcasting Group Inc.
Paul Larche  President, Larche Communications Inc.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you for the trust you've placed in me. I am your Chair for this meeting. It's only temporary; I'll be returning to my position as a committee member next week.

That said, we will now begin the 16th meeting of the Legislative Committee on Bill C-32. In the first hour, from 11:00 a.m. until noon, we will be hearing from the following people.

From the British Columbia Association of Broadcasters, we have Mr. Brad Phillips, the president; he's also vice-president of British Columbia operations, Astral Radio.

From the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, we have with us the chair, Ms. Sylvie Courtemanche, and Mr. Gabriel Van Loon, lawyer.

From Newcap Radio, we have Mike Keller, vice-president, industry affairs.

I will give you all together 15 minutes, and after that the members will be able to ask you questions.

You have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Sylvie Courtemanche Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Thank you for inviting us to appear before this committee to talk about this important piece of legislation.

I am here as chair of the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, an association that represents over 600 private radio stations across the country. We also represent the vast majority of television services in Canada. I am also vice-president, government relations, of Corus Entertainment Inc., one of Canada's leading media companies and Canadian content producers.

Copyright reform is necessary and urgent. Private broadcasters support Bill C-32. We believe this bill demonstrates a great effort on the part of the government to arrive at a balanced solution that provides something for everyone. We strongly support passage of this important piece of legislation.

Bill C-32 contains important clarifications of the broadcast incidental reproduction provision that recognize the unfair and unsustainable burden borne by broadcasters. We'd like to take this opportunity to explain to you why it is essential that this provision remain in the bill.

The proposed amendments to section 30.9 of the Copyright Act provide broadcasters with the right to operate their businesses in the digital economy without unfair and irrational duplication of their copyright liability. Some of you may remember that this exception was introduced in 1997 in the last Bill C-32. The very same collectives that have appeared before this committee appeared then and told the heritage committee:

Music publishers recognize that such copying [meaning radio's transfers of format] is integral to the operation of radio stations, and also realize that any publisher foolish enough to demand payment for such copying would likely find himself frozen out of the station's playlist in short order.

On this basis, an amendment to the ephemeral exception provision that effectively nullified the exception for broadcasters was introduced. Starting in 2001, the same collective who told the heritage committee it would be foolish to seek payment for incidental reproductions took advantage of the new statutory framework and sought and was granted a tariff payable by radio.

Today, radio is still paying that tariff to the music publishers, but at a higher rate. And radio is also paying two additional reproduction tariffs: one to the multibillion-dollar foreign record companies; and one of a much smaller amount, less than $200,000, to actual performers. This brings the total liability for something that all parties agreed should never be compensated to $21 million a year. We have heard many incorrect statements relating to the $21 million that the reproduction right is currently worth, but one truth is unequivocal: broadcasters make no money from the act of reproducing music content for the purposes of facilitating the broadcast of music.

We've heard members of this committee say that the $21 million would be carved out of income of artists. That is simply not accurate. We'd now like to explain to you how that $21 million actually breaks down.

It is important to understand how this $21 million is filtered through a complex collective licensing system that deducts large amounts for the overhead and legal costs of the collective society administering the tariff and for distribution to foreign record labels and publishing houses, before any of it ends up with the artists themselves.

Of the total $21 million, approximately $10 million goes to the multibillion-dollar foreign record labels. An estimated $1.1 million is deducted for overhead and administrative costs for the five collectives involved. Approximately $6.4 million goes to foreign rights holders, which leaves $3.5 million to be shared among the publishing houses, which are not necessarily Canadian, and the artists. We've provided the breakdown of this amount in our brief.

While the record companies and the publishing houses will tell you that the broadcaster exemption takes money away from artists, the truth is that it will take money away from multibillion-dollar foreign companies. In fact, the broadcaster exemption will make it possible to keep the money in the hands of 100% Canadian companies that invest substantially in their communities and in Canadian artists.

We want to emphasize that broadcasters are not opposed to paying for the communication right.

Private broadcasters were very pleased to see the inclusion of amendments to section 30.9 in Bill C-32. We were further pleased by the government's explanation that the intention of this amendment was to ensure that radio broadcasters would no longer be required to compensate copyright owners for making reproductions in the context of their operations. However, we believe the current drafting may not fully reflect the intent to provide a full exception to the reproduction right liability.

Our suggested amendments are highly technical in nature and designed to promote technological neutrality, minimize confusion, and ensure consistency with the rest of the provision as well as the Copyright Act as a whole. We will undertake to provide our proposed amendments to the entire committee.

The broadcaster exception is necessary. It will bring Canada in line with our international trading partners. Canada is one of a small minority of industrialized countries that still does not have a broadcaster exception. It will recognize the truly technical nature of the in-station reproductions.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

I'll now leave my friends from Astral and Newcap to explain how broadcasters contribute to their local communities and help Canadian artists.

11:10 a.m.

Brad Phillips President, Vice-President of British Columbia Operations, Astral Radio, British Columbia Association of Broadcasters

Thank you, Sylvie.

My name is Brad Phillips. I'm responsible for the 22 Astral radio stations in British Columbia, and manager of the Vancouver cluster of stations, Virgin Radio and AM 650.

I've been privileged to work in the Canadian broadcasting industry for over 30 years in both radio and television. Before Astral, I was regional vice-president for CHUM Television. Most of my career has been spent in the radio business. I'm proud to say that I have managed or programmed the number one station in Canada's two largest markets, Vancouver and Toronto. I've worked in large and small markets in four provinces for AM and FM stations in a variety of formats. I've been a CMW program director of the year. Earlier in my career I was a finalist for Billboard magazine's on-air personality of the year. I'm in my eighth year on the board of the British Columbia Association of Broadcasters.

Local radio is the strongest marketing tool for Canadian artists and music. This role needs to be recognized by government and the Canadian music industry. I am here today as the president of the British Columbia Association of Broadcasters. We have a combined audience of close to 4.5 million listeners and a presence in every community, large or small, across our beautiful province. In a number of those markets, we are the only local media.

I am also here on behalf of my company, Astral, the largest radio broadcaster in Canada with 83 stations in 46 communities throughout Canada, serving a total of 14.6 million listeners. Our 2,000 employees are a vital part of the communities they serve, through hundreds of year-round fundraising activities for local charities, coverage and promotion of local events and stories, and dedication of countless hours and energy required to bring people together for a common cause.

Tens of millions of dollars are raised for local charities by private broadcasters every year. An example is Astral's National Day of Caring for Kids Radiothon, through which, for two years in a row, Astral listeners have raised over $7 million for Children's Miracle Network and several of Astral's own children's charities. In Vancouver, my stations broadcast from the lobby of BC Children's Hospital.

On our Vancouver station, we have a program called The Best of BC, which is a cornerstone initiative showcasing new local unsigned artists. Each month we feature a new artist airing for the first time on radio. Each new artist is given on-air exposure with 70 spins aired during the month. Each artist is also featured for one month on our Best of BC web page.

Approximately 60 artists have been supported by the Best of BC feature. Some artists we have supported have gone on to major success. For example, Andrew Allen gained national radio airplay with two singles and signed to Epic Records. The Envy signed to Simmons Records, Gene Simmons' label, and played shows in Los Angeles with Eminem and KISS. Tara Holloway signed to 604 Records. Hannah Georgas played multiple Lilith Fair dates with Sarah McLachlan and signed with EMI.

In addition to these direct contributions to our local artists and local communities, private radio plays a significant role in the national cultural economy. As an industry, we employ over 10,500 Canadians. We raise countless millions of dollars for local and national charities and fundraisers per year, investing both human and financial resources in our communities. Private radio broadcasters spent $64 million on copyright royalties last year, in addition to the $21 million paid for the reproduction right. Those royalties are set as a function of our income, so as we continue to grow, so do the royalties paid out to the copyright collectives. We also invested $51 million in Canadian content development last year. That's money that goes directly to artists to help fund production and promotion of their music.

Mike Keller from Newcap Radio is going to tell you more about our CCD contributions.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Mike Keller Vice-President, Industry Affairs, Newcap Radio Inc.

Thank you, Brad.

My name is Mike Keller. I'm vice-president of industry affairs at Newcap Broadcasting. I've been working in the broadcasting industry, in both television and radio, for my entire career, starting in 1971, at MCTV in northern Ontario, then at Baton Broadcasting, CHUM, and now Newcap Broadcasting.

I'm currently on the board of directors of the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, and I've held positions on the boards of the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement, the Television Bureau of Canada, and the Radio Marketing Bureau.

Newcap is an Atlantic Canada success story. It now has the second largest complement of radio stations in Canada--75--serving 56 communities, from large cities, such as Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary, to tiny villages, such as Springdale, Newfoundland, and Blairmore, Alberta. Over 800 employees come to work at Newcap each day and make their communities better places to live. We are the largest radio operator in Atlantic Canada and the Maritimes.

As has been noted, I'm going to further illustrate the depth of contribution that Canadian broadcasters make to the music community in Canada. Broadcasters provide publicity and direct cash investments for musicians. This is done across the industry through such programs as the Big Money Shot in our Ottawa station, Live 88.5, which invests $500,000 worth of grants in Ottawa area artists every year. Through this program, Newcap Radio has already added 10 artists in full rotation and 100 artists in feature spins on its radio stations, putting unsigned Canadian artists on air alongside the world's most popular musicians.

We also have a program called Rock Star, in Calgary, that provides $500,000 in direct funding to local artists to help them tap into financial and management resources to bring their musical aspirations to the next level and beyond. The unique financial coaching, mentoring, networking, and on-air resources of these Newcap stations have enabled local musicians to realize their dreams of launching successful careers as Canadian recording artists.

Newcap is there every step of the way, from song writing to recording, album production, performance coaching, touring, marketing, and ultimately cross-Canada airplay, both in full rotation and as feature spins that put these unsigned artists next to the world's best recording artists.

Over a 10-year period, Newcap alone has contributed over $30 million in contributions to CCD, $5.7 million to FACTOR, $8.5 million to Starmaker, and another $16 million to local artists and initiatives.

In just the last year, private broadcasters as a whole contributed $51 million to CCD through programs like FACTOR, MusicAction, and the Radio Starmaker Fund. On top of these investments in local communities and artists, private radio broadcasters are also paying $64 million, which is growing every year, in copyright royalties to authors, composers, publishers, performers, and makers of sound recordings for broadcast. This copyright payment will not be affected by Bill C-32.

It has been said that granting the broadcaster an exception will mean that broadcasters will get a free ride. We think that contributing over $115 million to artists in a single year is hardly a free ride. We believe that we are doing an exceptional job in our support of Canadian artists. In reality, broadcasters are an essential catalyst for the success of artists. The broadcasting industry must remain healthy in order to continue to provide this tremendous level of support for Canadian artists.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. We are happy to answer any questions you might have.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much, Messrs. Keller, Phillips and Van Loon, as well as Ms. Courtemanche.

I will give the floor right now to Mr. McTeague for seven minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to the committee, and thank you for your position. I think we're hearing a little more in terms of ads that a number of your members across the country are airing, which certainly have my attention.

Mr. Keller, what you've described in your comments here I think has more to do with what we refer to, in the vernacular, as “more industry support”, the $52 million. That really doesn't have anything to do with copyright, nor the legislation here, so I'll leave you aside for a moment and maybe ask my question of Madam Courtemanche.

Madam Courtemanche, your industry has evolved and has used new technologies that involve copying music onto broadcast servers, which provide them the opportunity to, among other things, reduce staff and space requirements, minimize losses from advertising insertion errors, produce better-quality programs, and improve productivity. We all understand that. In fact, the Copyright Board found last year that the new broadcasting technology means lower costs for radio stations and that “the reproduction technology has allowed stations to increase their efficiency and profitability”.

So when your website, which one is directed to through the attack ads, particularly against my party for coming up with some rather innovative ideas to try to provide balance, claims that a server's copies yield “no revenue”, that's not the same as saying that they create no profit. In fact, broadcasters have earned record profits over the past several years. I think you'll acknowledge that, because the Copyright Board has done that for us. It is an industry of $1.5 billion.

The CRTC has reported that the commercial radio stations' pre-tax profit margins increased from 8.93% in 2001 to 21.2%. Is that right?

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

I don't have the statistics with me today, but I always think that when one comes to an issue, one should look at it from a balanced point of view. You looked at it from one point of view. You said that radio stations achieved a bunch of efficiencies as a result of this technology change.

How about the efficiencies achieved by the music industry? The music industry used to have to hire an AR man, and they used to have to press CDs and physically take them to the radio station and say, “Will you play my music?”

As a result of these efficiency changes that have occurred, the music industry has had significant economic efficiencies, which nobody seems to care about. There should be a balance. Yes, we might have saved some money. I'll let Mike or Brad speak about the efficiencies and how much it would represent. But it's nowhere near the economic efficiencies that the music industry has as a result of having the ability to push music electronically to our servers....

Brad, can you give us an idea of--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Sorry, ma'am, I want to take exception to what you're saying. Your comments at the outset were that there was something for everyone in this bill. I happen to believe—and I think a lot of Canadians believe—that there's actually nothing for creators. We're talking about artists here.

Let me put something more focused for you to consider. In your ads, you're stating:

Local radio in Canada may be threatened if Bill C-32 is not passed as introduced by the Government. This much needed Bill may fail because the Liberal Party wants an amendment that would have local radio stations send money to big recording companies outside Canada.

You say that local radio may be threatened. I have to ask...and take exception, because the Copyright Board found last year that the typical small radio station, the kind that you're announcing, with revenues of $120,000, would pay about $4,600 in total copyright royalties, while medium-sized stations with revenues of $1.1 million would pay $44,500.

Isn't it true that about $700 of the small stations' payments and $9,200 of the medium stations' payments would be for the use of reproduction right?

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

First of all, when you say there's nothing in the act for creators, I do know--not that I want to get into everything that's good or bad in the act--that there are provisions for creators. It deals with the peer-to-peer file-sharing issue. It creates a making available right for creators. It enhances and clarifies rights for—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Madam Courtemanche, I only have a few minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

Agreed, but you made a point that—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

My point is that you're crying poor and you're making a lot of money, and you're suggesting here that $700 and $9,200 is a difference between life and death for your radio stations.

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

I would like Mr. Phillips to have an opportunity to respond to your question on how difficult it is—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

No, Madam Courtemanche, I'm referring to your testimony. It upsets me to no small extent to know that you're coming here suggesting to us that somehow you're not making any money. I've demonstrated that you're making more money than you have in a long time, and now you're prepared to take it out on the artists.

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

[Inaudible—Editor]...over 10 years, and our revenues have increased 40%.

If any business model that has copyright...that increased 100-fold more than what your revenue increases are, I don't know what needs to happen. There are radio stations that are closing in this country. Our particular group closed two stations, three AM stations, because the business model does not work anymore.

I will let Mr. Phillips speak, if you would, please, because he can tell you about some micro markets where this is very difficult.

11:20 a.m.

President, Vice-President of British Columbia Operations, Astral Radio, British Columbia Association of Broadcasters

Brad Phillips

There are markets that are served in British Columbia. I have access to talk to the managers on a regular basis in my capacity with British Columbia Association of Broadcasters, and some of those markets and some of those operators struggle. This money is important. These are broadcasters that are operating on the fringes of the coastline of British Columbia, serving the communities that they're in, the classic radio station set-up with the morning guy. He does the morning show. He puts on a tie and goes and sells advertising. It's that kind of an operation. They play the music that the community produces on their radio stations.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Are you closing those stations because of ephemeral rights, because of that small amount?

Are you telling us now that you're closing those stations, Madam Courtemanche, because of this?

11:20 a.m.

President, Vice-President of British Columbia Operations, Astral Radio, British Columbia Association of Broadcasters

Brad Phillips

What we're saying is that the increased payments, that have increased year over year, that are going out, are causing some of those operators to now look at their operations and go, “Can I afford to be in this business?”

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

There's no doubt about it: we have some significant burdens. I know you said that CCD doesn't matter, but the point is that it's a cost of doing business, and it's an escalating cost. It's a cost where we go from having one tariff to now having three tariffs on reproduction. It's just a multiplication of layering.

We do the activity of broadcasting--

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

But you're getting more for less, Madam Courtemanche. Technology is allowing you to get more with less.

Let me take another part, about the $10 million--

11:25 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

But our activity hasn't changed since the dawn of time. When we started radio—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Are you suggesting that technology has not changed to allow you to do more with less?

11:25 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

I'm saying look at what we do. We play music on air. That has not changed.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

So 80% of your time is in music, and you're forced to take a small amount—

11:25 a.m.

Chair, Canadian Association of Broadcasters

Sylvie Courtemanche

We're paying for the music. We're paying $64 million a year for that right. We pay the biggest royalties in Canada. We're paying for that right. We're not arguing that we shouldn't be paying for the.... We make money from the broadcast—