Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) Committee on March 3rd, 2011

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Ms. Courtemanche, I think you're overstating the case. If you want to be political about it, then unfortunately that's the way it's going to have to end.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

I will give the floor to Madame Lavallée.

Ms. Lavallée, you have seven minutes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to you all. I'm pleased to welcome you here this morning.

First of all, I want to tell you that I read your briefs in full, particularly yours, Ms. Courtemanche, from the Canadian Association of Broadcasters.

I read it carefully and analyzed it. I saw that you said it was essential that Bill C-32 be adopted. The Bloc québécois also believes that passing a bill designed to modernize the Copyright Act is essential, after 15 or 16 years of an old model that no longer corresponds to today's habits and which is not suited to the Internet or the digital universe. We have to change that act as soon as possible, but the bill must nevertheless be balanced. You say it's essential to pass it. I entirely agree with you.

You say the radio stations and broadcasters generally are enriching agents in our society. You're entirely right. You're important for the Canadian and Quebec economies. You have an immensely important role in the star system of Quebec and no doubt of Canada, which I know less, and I apologize for that. You are brilliant business people who are successful. Revenue of $6.58 billion isn't nothing. We congratulate you on your profits of $1.5 billion.

You say you represent 600 radio stations and 10,500 employees, to whom you pay $612 million. You're enjoying good success, and we're proud of that. We encourage you to continue. You're having major success and, no doubt, minor failures, like all the major industrial sectors.

We could discuss the principle of the $21 million you're asking not to pay. We could do that. I have arguments, whereas you say it goes to foreign multibillionaires. It should not be forgotten that there is reciprocity. Other countries pay royalties to our artists. You say the small radio stations bear an incredible burden. We know they have to complete a form every month and send five cheques. I don't want to go back over each of those arguments, but I want to talk to you about the principle of Bill C-32 which is unbalanced.

Your approach, your testimony and your brief are the perfect illustration of that. There are others, of course, but what you're saying about this is one of the best examples we can cite. You pay $21 million in royalties for what's called ephemeral recording and you don't want to pay for that. That's not in Bill C-32, and you're quite pleased about that. That $21 million amount inflates your profits, which are already respectable, and you want to take that money away from the artists, the crafts people and the people who will be making other cultural productions and artistic creations. That makes no sense. You're one of the examples, but we could cite others, for the $126 million that's taken away from artists.

I'd like you, Ms. Courtemanche, and anyone who wants to speak, to talk to me about the principle of this bill which is unbalanced in favour of the industry and against artists, as you've just demonstrated.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

Ms. Lavallée, with all due respect, I don't agree with you. I don't believe that your premise, that the bill is unbalanced, is correct. That's our point of view and I respect yours. I believe the bill is balanced.

However, I admit it isn't perfect. I entirely agree with you on that point.

Is it the best bill possible? It isn't perfection, but it's a game of compromise. There are winners and losers, but we're trying to strike a balance between the copyright owner, and the fact that that person is entitled to receive reasonable royalties reflecting the market value of his or her product, and the users of that product. That's what the legislation aims to do. It attempts to reconcile these two interests and to establish a balanced framework.

When we talk about the exemption sought, it isn't just a matter of putting that money into our pockets.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

It will indeed have the effect of inflating your profits, Ms. Courtemanche. I mean that you are one of the factors of this imbalance; you aren't responsible for the imbalance.

And you're asking us to take $21 million away from artists' royalties and to redistribute it to the industry, which is already a billion-dollar, and even multibillion-dollar concern; I congratulate you on that.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

First of all, most of the G20 countries have this kind of broadcaster exemption. So we're a separate case. Apart from two countries, I believe, France and Belgium, everyone, including the United States—

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

There's Switzerland. All right, the United States also has an exemption, but a number of countries don't. Canada isn't the only country in the world, no.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

No, but the majority—

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You'll send us a list. Ms. Courtemanche, send the list to the members care of the Chair.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

I'll send you the list.

If the music industry is in jeopardy, it's not because of broadcasters. We do a good job, as you said. We're good people; we aren't bad people.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

We know that, and we appreciate you.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

We come here and we're told things like that.

First, not all stations are making big profits. We have to agree on the fact that most of the stations that are making very good profits are located in the major markets. However, we represent more than 600 stations, the vast majority of which are positioned in small markets. They aren't making big profits, madam.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

However, it all ultimately balances out. We know that, Ms. Courtemanche. You're a business woman, and you know that. If the big stations didn't compensate for the profits of the small ones, you would abandon them. And that's what you recently did.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

Ms. Lavallée, you're arguing from the principle that all the small stations are owned by large corporations. That isn't the case. In the next few meetings, you'll be meeting witnesses who own four stations. There are a lot of people like that. A large percentage of the small stations are operated by independent entrepreneurs who own one or two stations. They have a very difficult task and day-to-day existence.

As for the artists, they like local radio. For example, in a small community like Pemberton, a minor musician who comes from there wants his productions to be heard on the radio. That's important for him.

We want to support our industry. I work from the principle that I don't make a copy because I want to make money, but because I simply want to broadcast a product. When I broadcast, I pay a good price for the right to do so.

Thank you.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Ms. Courtemanche and Ms. Lavallée.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Merci, monsieur le président.

Thank you for coming.

It's certainly a hot morning. I would advise your publicist in future to do the attack ads after you come to committee, not before. We would all have been getting along very well this morning, but when you do attack ads, it does put people's backs up, so you get what you get.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

[Inaudible--Editor]...react.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Fair enough; we'll look at how big the bus is.

At the outset, private radio does amazing work. I look at my riding and I see the work--the charity, the outreach, Q92, Moose FM. We have CHYK-FM for the francophone community, CJKL-FM. This is not in dispute.

What is in dispute, as you say, is the issue of balance and fairness. Everyone who's come before us on any side has said that the sky is falling in. So I'm a little jaundiced about the sky falling in. I just want to get a little information here.

At the outset, I find it odd that I'm listening to some very large stations and some smaller ones warning us about the dangers of giving money to foreign multinational corporations. You sound like the New Democrats in 1965. Those four multinational corporations are EMI, Universal, Sony BMG, Warner. They are the big players in the United States and Canada. I want it on the record here, I'll be going to bat for CRIA and RIAA today, but they are a driving force in the record business.

But there is also independence; in Quebec, you're paying almost entirely to Quebec artists. If you don't want to be paying this money to foreign nationals, why don't you just play more Canadian content and it will all go to Canadians?

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

We play 35% Canadian content and we're very proud. In Quebec that amount is a lot higher. But 35% is--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So it's 35%; I just find the argument to say if you have to pay this mechanical, it's going to go overseas.... Why not just play Canadian acts, maybe up to 50%, and then you'd be doing yourself a favour as opposed to warning us that these are big, bad multinationals? Those big, bad multinationals are also in Canada. They're also signing acts. They also have operations internationally where they're collecting royalties, and there are reciprocal agreements.

Why not just up your Canadian content?

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

I'll let the operator explain how a radio station works and what audiences want to hear.

Brad, do you want to go ahead?

[Brad Phillips]

Thank you, Sylvie.

Mr. Angus, no one can dispute that Canadian radio supports Canadian artists. We've made careers for hundreds—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But that's not in dispute. What's in dispute is the warning that we shouldn't be giving money to foreign multinationals when that's what you're playing.

[Brad Phillips]

With due respect, though, your suggestion that we should play more Canadian content music and not play what's best for our audience and ignore a proper programming of our station so that we can overcome this inequity that's being put in front of us seems hardly logical.

[Sylvie Courtemanche]

If you want Canadian radio to shut down very quickly, Mr. Angus, I can tell you that if you want to change our business model.... For instance, I really thought that Canadian broadcasters, as you said, are smart operators and know how to operate their business. Now you're telling us that we don't know how to operate our business. Which is it?