Evidence of meeting #20 for Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was education.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ramona Jennex  Chair and Minister of Education for Nova Scotia, Council of Ministers of Education, Canada
Rosalind Penfound  Deputy Minister, Copyright Consortium, Council of Ministers of Education of Canada
Wanda Noel  Legal Counsel, Copyright Consortium, Council of Ministers of Education of Canada
Rory McGreal  Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University
Cathy Moore  National Director, Consumer and Government Relations, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Karen Coffey  Member, Canadian Association of Disability Service Providers in Post-Secondary Education

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Because of course we're dealing with access as it relates to the addition of education, in terms of fair dealing, which the bill proposes, would you agree or would you consider that it would be considered unfair dealing—to use that term—if it has a negative impact on the market for a work? Would that be something you would look at?

12:25 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

There won't be a negative effect on the market. I think what's happening is that too many people in Canada are focusing on the IP economy, and particularly the copyright economy. If you'd wake up and smell the coffee, you'd see that a much bigger economy is the fair dealing economy. You have web hosting companies, search engines, software developers, device manufacturers, news agencies. All of these depend on fair dealing and a robust fair dealing law. A recent report put out by the United States said it's bigger than the IP economy, and it's way bigger than the copyright economy. So if you're talking about effects on the market, we should be opening up the fair dealing economy, because that is the big economy, not the IP economy. Excuse me, IP is big, but both are big, and the future is going more and more to the fair dealing economy. If you look at the industries that depend on fair dealing, you'll see they're growing much faster than the IP economy.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

What about an amendment that said something would be considered unfair if there were a collective society that existed for works? Would you have trouble with that particular amendment?

12:30 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

If what? Sorry.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

If there exists a licence from a collective society for these kinds of works—the market, for instance, or someone who is a property right holder or a holder of a particular copyright—would you have any difficulty with suggesting that fairer dealing would exempt, or would you ignore someone who had such a licence?

12:30 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

I don't see how it would. Fair dealing is very restrictive. You can't do a great deal with it, but what you can do is really important.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Yes, Mr. McGreal, we're concerned about what “fair dealing” means, because now “education” is much broader than the way it was once defined. In fact, I think even the Supreme Court has made it very clear in its decisions. I think you'll be familiar with this, that there's no set test. As to whether dealing is fair will depend on the facts in each case, which is why I'm interested, because this is a very broad definition that's been given. The courts have said that they want to be relatively restrictive, but have defined it in a way that I think leaves it very nebulous. This is why we're trying to get from you what your take is on this kind of thing, whether or not you would see certain things as fair under education and certain things as unfair.

But I thank you for that anyway.

Mr. Garneau had a question here, because I think you got into IP. I'll let him handle it.

Thank you, Mr. McGreal.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Mr. McGreal, I just want to understand one thing. You are talking about digital locks, and I want to be clear on whether you're saying we shouldn't have digital locks at all, or it's all right to have digital locks but we must allow circumvention for non-infringing or non-illegal purposes.

12:30 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

I support digital locks. If you want to use digital locks, go ahead. That's fine. But don't take away my rights in order to assert your right. If you want to put up a fence on your property and it goes over my right-of-way, I would like to have the right to open the fence, open the gate.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

I just wanted to clarify that with you. You're in line with most people. Thank you.

12:30 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

Thank you very much.

We'll move to the Bloc Québécois. Madame Lavallée, pour sept minutes.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you very much.

Since this is probably the last time we will be speaking at this legislative committee, I would like to say that the Bloc Québécois finds it extremely regrettable that this bill will die on the Order Paper. About a month ago, we made an offer to the Minister of Industry and the Minister of Canadian Heritage to try to get this bill through.

The first thing we asked was for the ministers to ensure through this bill that artists would receive all the money to which they are fully entitled. We suggested that this be done by modernizing the private copy rules, withdrawing the education exemption and reintroducing royalties for ephemeral recordings, which amounted to annual revenues of $126 million. The Bloc Québécois could not pass this bill without that revenue going back to artists.

We find it extremely unfortunate that this government has preferred to impoverish its artists and the cultural sector rather than to adopt this important bill, which is needed in order to clamp down on piracy and illegal downloading as well as to clarify situations such as the one you have just told us about.

Mr. McGreal, you referred in your presentation to the first copyright act, known as Queen Anne's Law. You are a scholar, you come from a university and you are responsible for research. In your research, you have probably looked up what the queen of England said at the time that first copyright law was passed. We have to remember that publishers and printers at that time controlled the manuscripts and printed them as much as they liked, without caring about the authors. Not just novelists, scientists too.

That period was called the Enlightenment in Europe, and scientists were becoming very important. The queen of England, who was good to her subjects, wanted to educate them. You are right on that score. So she passed this law—she was the first to do such a thing, too—which was a sort of revolution in that authors were finally provided with rights. She found that both scientific and literary authors no longer wanted to share their works with printers and publishers, because they used them and made changes to them but paid little or nothing to the authors. The printers and publishers took over the ownership of the works.

The queen of England took inspiration from the philosophy of John Locke, who made the very important point that people own their intellectual work. The creation belongs to the creator and not to the user. Your rights and interests have to be seen from the perspective of the creator's rights. When you buy a book, you are not buying the content, the novel: you are buying the right to have it in your possession in a given format. You read the book, but the creation still belongs to the creator.

Digital books need to be viewed the same way. The creation still belongs to the creator. The digital format is just different and more modern. The principle does not change. The creation belongs to the creator. If we want culture in both Canada and Quebec to develop and blossom, and if we want creators to continue to produce work, we need to show great respect for the process of creation. I do not believe that access is the problem. In your university, there is no problem with access. The problem is the requirement to pay. If you wanted to obtain a second digital book, you could easily do that. You could also obtain a printed version of the book and pay royalties through Access Copyright.

There are a number of ways to access the information contained in digital and print versions of books. But we need the author's consent to do so, whether we are talking about a scientific author or a literary one. Authors must be paid, since they created the works and are responsible for them.

12:35 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

There's a recent survey from Spain of students using e-books, and they complained they'd rather have the paper book because of the restrictions that are put on the e-books. There are all kinds of restrictions. You can pay all the money you want, but you still have these restrictions, and the restrictions interfere with the educational process. That's the problem.

As to your historical example, I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you. Copyright did not create intellectual property. Intellectual property is a new word; it's been around only since the 1960s. What it did was give authors the copyright, not le droit d'auteur; that's a French concept. It gave the right to copy for a limited time. It created the public domain. It said authors can have their right for a limited time, 27 years, as long as it promotes education. That was the origin of the law.

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr. McGreal, but my time is limited.

I would invite you to review your history books and reread the context in which the first copyright law, Queen Anne's Law, was created. You will find that it was the first time that authors were given rights.

12:35 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

It was the first time that rights were given to authors and to the universities. In fact, it didn't give rights; it limited rights. It was for the owners. The printers owned it. As it is today, generally, the authors and the creators, which I think is a misuse of the concept, don't get much of the money. Right now the money goes to publishers, not to the creators. A small percentage goes to the creators. In those days, it was the printers and it limited their rights. It wasn't brought in to give them rights; it was brought in to limit them to 27 years and to make sure that it expanded knowledge.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

Thank you.

Mr. Angus.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

After the hundred and something witnesses we've had, it seems we're all going back to first lessons, so it's good that we have you here. Queen Anne's law was the law to encourage learning, so when we deal with fair dealing, we're finding ourselves back with that first principle.

I'm interested in what's been said about fair dealing today. My colleague from the Liberal Party suggested that the ministers representing education in every province in Canada were trying to get something for free—that was their definition of fair dealing.

I'm concerned also with my colleague from the Conservative Party. He suggested all along that technological protection measures have to do with the market; if you have a problem, take it up with the market. He's modified that somewhat. Now he says we can trust the minister; the minister would be all-knowing and all-wise, and if there's a problem we can take it to the minister. He says that user rights are casually mentioned in the Supreme Court's decision in CCH Canadian Limited v. Law Society of Upper Canada. Yet when I read the decision, it says, “User rights are not just loopholes. Both owner rights and user rights should therefore be given the fair and balanced reading that befits remedial legislation.” And it says that this interpretation is to ensure that the user rights are not constrained.

Is it not the role of the federal government to bring forth legislation that defines what fair dealing is, so that we can move forward and get on with education and ensuring that artists are protected?

12:40 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

I would support that. It has to be fair. I've been seemingly all on the user side, but I believe in protecting the rights of creators. This is important. The key point that I want to make is don't take away our rights in order to protect your rights. There are silly things in the law: you destroy your research paper within five days or you put it in a filing cabinet. This is ironic, because the copyright collectives insist that we give them their information digitally, but they want us to take our research papers, print them out, and put them in the filing cabinet. Nobody does that any more. What is that law about? It's just absolutely absurd.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I want to go to the sense of a two-tier set of rights being created. I doubt that would even pass a court test, that you can define rights in legislation but they don't exist in the digital realm, where everything is moving.

I'm concerned with the technological protection measures—again there is the law of unintended consequences, as much as we want to protect property from being unfairly ripped off and put on isoHunt—in terms of education whether or not they will have a huge impact. I'm looking at the state of California, and you had mentioned them. They're putting $500 million in the next four years to create online, accessible, open education resources that will be available to anyone using the Internet. Whether or not the move in the United States with people will get around the technological protection measures by creating open education, would that encourage something at the University of Athabasca to start using those open education materials and perhaps in the end leave many of our national and regional publishers in the lurch if we're still under the technological protection regime?

12:40 p.m.

Associate Vice-President, Research, Athabasca University

Dr. Rory McGreal

The move is already under way. We are committed to moving to open educational resources. Quite a few universities are following in our lead already. This has started. But it's big in the States. The State of Washington has gone to open education resources. California is going. President Obama put in I think it's $200 million for the creation of open education resources.

Again, the main impetus to this is the digital locks. You can't run a modern university online with all these restrictions. We're negotiating with our publishers, and we give millions of dollars to publishers. I hope that the creators get some of that money, but we give millions, and we give millions to the copyright collectives as well. We just want to make sure that we can do, with the material, what needs to be done for learning. You can't do it if you put all these restrictions on it.

We have students in Australia. We have DVDs; they don't work in Australia. What are you talking about? The world is getting smaller. They're putting in all these restrictions, and they're trying to control us. You can have this book, but you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do this other thing. It's an offence to show the book to your wife. Read those licences. They're so restrictive that we just can't work with them. And it's going to destroy them. These are the unintended consequences.

I've said in a few forums, well, bring on the digital locks. Lock everything away. Because I'm the chair of Open Education Resources, and I'm promoting the use of them and I think there couldn't be a better promotion. If you think you're defending the copyright industry by making it more and more restrictive, I respectfully suggest that you're not doing it, that the unintended consequences are going to come.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madame Moore and Madame Coffey, I'm interested in hearing from you again in what it means on the ground.

I mentioned in the earlier session that my daughter went through university and through high school and grade school fighting pretty much every step of the way to get access. In her last year in university she met with a number of students who had perceptual disabilities. She asked them what they did when they were confronted by a teacher or professor who simply wasn't interested in accommodating them. In every single case the student dropped the course. My daughter didn't. She actually would take them to the human rights commission, and that's how she got through school. But she was shocked. She said that if it wasn't absolutely easy for the teacher or professor, they simply refused.

When you add the extra burden of being able to access materials in a timely manner to participate in a course, how do you think that affects students who are trying to go to post-secondary education, or even high school, to get where they need to go?

12:45 p.m.

National Director, Consumer and Government Relations, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Cathy Moore

I'll start and Karen can finish.

What happens is that typically a person with a perceptual disability ends up taking longer at university because they're waiting for their books. They often take part-time classes. It's not disability-related all the time, it's often simply resource-related. So it takes longer to get through university. It's more demanding. Their marks aren't as high because they've started reading the material in October and everybody else started in September, so it creates an uneven playing field. The more complicated it becomes to produce alternate formats—and technical protection measures certainly complicate things—the longer it takes to get books to kids. Whether they be books, course packs, or whatever, get them to kids the same time as their non-disabled peers are getting them.

12:45 p.m.

Member, Canadian Association of Disability Service Providers in Post-Secondary Education

Karen Coffey

Certainly these students are at a disadvantage from the get-go, in that they really have to start planning well in advance to try to get their books in an accessible format. It is extremely labour intensive. A recent study done out of Dawson College in Montreal said that for every week in which they didn't have a textbook, their grade mark went down one letter grade for each week. Oftentimes, by the time these materials are readily available to them, the course is finished. It's completely unfair.

It's completely unfair: there is no reason why they should not be able to go into their bookstore and buy an electronic copy of the textbook, just like their peers do. It certainly holds them at a severe disadvantage. The wonderful advances in educational technology that are helping so many other students with disabilities are actually putting up additional barriers to students with perceptual disabilities who can't access digital files.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Braid for seven minutes.