Evidence of meeting #4 for Bill C-39 in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nature.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

St-Hilaire  Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Ross  Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Proulx  Chief Executive Officer, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec
Berrigan  Senior Director, Government Relations and Farm Policy, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Schumann  Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
Payne  National President, Unifor
Warren  National Director, United Steelworkers
Soucy  Legislative Staff Representative, United Steelworkers
Guibord  President and Chief Executive Officer, Electricity Canada
Exner-Pirot  Director of Energy, Natural Resources and Environment, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Toussaint  President and Chief Executive Officer, Québec Mining Association
Tremblay  Lead, Sustainability, Québec Mining Association
Elgie  Jarislowsky Chair in Clean Economy, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Hong  Member of Federal Government Expert Taskforce, Natural Capital Accounting and Nature Financing, As an Individual
McMurray  Government Relations and Campaign Specialist, Ecojustice Canada
McLaughlin  Vice-President, Conservation Strategy, Nature Conservancy of Canada
Chief Abram Benedict  Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario
Harlan Schilling  Liard First Nation
Phillips  Political Executive, First Nations Summit

Chief Harlan Schilling Liard First Nation

Thanks for the opportunity to speak with you today. I acknowledge that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

My name is Harlan Schilling. I am also the CEO for the First Nations Centre of Excellence for Economic Development and was recently elected chief of Liard First Nation, one of the five Kaska first nations in Canada. Our territory spans northern British Columbia, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories. I was previously deputy chief of Daylu Dena Council for nine years, so I have led on both sides of the B.C. and Yukon border.

I am here because of the north. Much of what Canada now wants to build, from critical minerals to roads and power, lies in the north, yet the north is barely visible in Bill C-39.

Our communities are small and remote, and our field seasons are short. Our lands are among the last large intact landscapes on earth, and they are warming faster than almost anywhere else. The Kaska have no treaty, so protections written for northern treaty regimes do not reach us. A law that is to shape the north should be built with the north.

The Kaska are here to be partners in building Canada. I speak for both the health of our lands and my nation's economic future. For the Kaska, one cannot thrive without the other. We want the northern jobs and careers at home for our young people. In Lower Post, we showed that development and land protection can be balanced.

The Kaska and British Columbia have built a land use plan for our territory. At its heart is Dene K’éh Kusān, meaning “always will be there”. It's a proposed conservation area of about 3.1 million hectares co-managed by the Kaska with the Province of British Columbia and possibly the neighbouring first nations. The plan also identifies where reasonable development may be considered.

Canada and B.C. committed to the northwest critical conservation corridor together with the protected areas of our Tahltan and Taku River Tlingit brothers and sisters. The DKK is the conservation heart, what the Prime Minister called an area the size of Greece and the premier called equal to 12,000 Stanley Parks. The DKK is a large part of what makes those comparisons possible. Both governments are also funding mineral and infrastructure projects within the region. In our territory, conservation and development must happen together. That is the heart of our message.

For the Kaska, conservation is the foundation for any approval of critical minerals and related development in our territory. That is not negotiable. It begins at the planning table, not after permits are signed, with the Kaska as partners from the first conversation. Companies must first avoid and minimize harm. Where damage remains, they must contribute meaningfully to conservation, restoration and long-term stewardship at a scale that reflects our land use plan. Canada should set a clear framework so development is nature-positive, and the exact model we will work out together.

Healthy lands are good business. They make communities and companies resilient against drought, floods and damaged infrastructure. Our elders say healthy lands make healthy people, and I would add healthy economies.

Certainty comes from agreements, not speed. A project forced through over our nation's objections is headed to court, and that would be the slowest path of all.

I ask three things.

First, support and respect the land use plans and conservation agreements that we are working together on in good faith with British Columbia and the Yukon.

Second, make decisions with indigenous nations as true partners, consistent with our rights and the UN declaration, with the time and resources to take part.

Last, make conservation and restoration, especially indigenous-led conservation, part of nation building from the very start so that it delivers a net gain for nature and, at the very least, no net loss.

Picture what is possible. First, a vast boreal landscape permanently protected, where caribou move freely, grizzly bears and stone sheep roam, millions of migratory birds return each spring and the Kaska guardians on the land and young people with good careers in the industry live at home rather than in distant camps. That is nation building, and we hope you will take this path with us.

With that being said and now being in the Yukon, understand that the Kaska have three large mining sites within our territory that need an abundance of work. We have Faro, which is one of the world's largest known man-made mining disasters. That is federally held by the federal government, and two are held by the Yukon.

Again, with the Kaska being leaders in conservation, I think it's only fair to be a part of the laws that are made within our territory. For years we have worked on this conservation project. Again, it's not if; it's when. We are the corridor of the north, and projects will be coming to my territory. Again, it is laws like this that will have a dramatic effect on the next seven generations, so I ask the committee to make those considerations and keep the DKK in your thoughts when you're making your decisions.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you, Chief.

Mr. Phillips.

Robert Phillips Political Executive, First Nations Summit

[Witness spoke in Secwepemctsín]

[English]

I'm Robert Phillips, with the First Nations Summit. We are a provincial body in British Columbia. Basically, our motto is treaties, agreements and other constructive arrangements. As you know, modern treaties are creeping along slowly, but we're surely getting there.

We're into agreements of all types. When we look at what the Prime Minister is now talking about, with over $1 trillion of investment into Canada and then with all of the projects that are coming into B.C. as well, going into the billions.... There are a couple of sides to the story that we really want to have a discussion on. Of course, it can't be at all costs. That's very important.

At the First Nations Summit, we're basically advocates for first nations in British Columbia that are in the modern treaty process.

One of the things that are very important to us is DRIPA, the declaration act in British Columbia. As you know, the new B.C. Conservatives will be coming in and may attempt to abolish that, so we're certainly going to have our discussions with the B.C. Conservatives as well. Of course, you have the United Nations declaration here in Ottawa. That is very important, because the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is basic human rights, with one of those being the article I mentioned before, which is article 37 on treaties.

Reconciliation is a story that needs to be told. It will take a lot more than five minutes, but I'm respecting you, Mr. Chair, and the committee members and the questions that will come up. We look at it from this perspective. The federal colonial government, by order of the Crown, pursued treaty-making. This endeavour wasn't completed in British Columbia. There are about eight treaties in British Columbia. In addition, there are the Douglas treaties on Vancouver Island and Treaty 8 in northeastern British Columbia.

It all started in 1992. Back in the day, I think it was then Progressive Conservative Brian Mulroney and Mr. Harcourt with the NDP. Some say those were the good old days, because we got off to a very good start, but there have been many implications, many slowdowns and now many court cases that have come up.

Delgamuukw, Tsilhqot'in and Calder started it all off to recognize aboriginal title in British Columbia. It's on the ground. It's very real and you can't wish it away. It is something that's in British Columbia because there's a lack of treaties, so it's something that we're dealing with there. There have been decades and decades of litigation.

For Bill C-39 to seek to accelerate resource projects in first nation territories, there are necessary requirements. There has to be free, prior and informed consent. There also has to be meaningful consultation that has to take place around our Canadian Constitution, which we all uphold. I believe—and we heard the speakers before—if we're going to do something, let's do something else that will combat both things and be complementary.

I believe first nations carry a great responsibility. We have been stewards of the land for thousands and thousands of years. These are our lands, resources and territories. Of course, now that we're in this position of being stewards, we want to make sure that with all of this resource development and these projects that will be coming into British Columbia and throughout Canada, we look at them very meaningfully and we have that consultation and the consent of first nations.

The Government of Canada, of course, has touted Bill C-39 as “the most comprehensive and ambitious reform to Canada’s ability to get big things built in a generation.” It also stated that it's pursuing this legislation while maintaining strong environmental standards and upholding the rights of indigenous peoples. In talks with the Prime Minister, he tells us he will have that consultation and he will have that dialogue. As you know, first nations are built around oral history, and that history is very important, so when you say something, it means a lot to first nations.

We have written this submission to explain, in particular, the legal and historical contexts in B.C. and to identify priority changes needed to mitigate harm and support durable, rights-respecting economic development.

In conclusion, Bill C-39 must be amended to reflect a rights-based framework that upholds first nations' constitutional and human rights, advances the implementation of UNDRIP, strengthens environmental protections and ensures that first nations are meaningful participants in decisions affecting their territories, right and well-being. With these changes, it can be improved as a path to responsible, sustainable economic development.

I give you thanks for the opportunity to speak. Kukstsélp.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lawrence, you're going to start us off for six minutes.

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

That's perfect.

Meegwetch. Thanks for being here.

I'll start out with a survey with respect to the origins of Bill C-39. I'm going to ask you all the same question.

I'll start with you, Chief Benedict.

Were you or your organization meaningfully consulted before the drafting and introduction of Bill C-39?

7:55 p.m.

Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario

Regional Chief Abram Benedict

Thanks for the question.

No. The discussion paper that was released to all Canadians via a post on the website was similar. It was at the same time. We may have heard at different points that this was coming, but we weren't consulted.

I must say, though, that consultation varies for our nations. The indication that “we're going to do something” is not consultation.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

Thank you. I appreciate that.

It's the same question for you, Mr. Phillips.

7:55 p.m.

Political Executive, First Nations Summit

Robert Phillips

Quite simply, again, it's no.

As you know, there's accommodation with consultation. It can be very complex, as mentioned, with protocols and relationship building. We had the new Prime Minister, and he came out with guns blazing: “Let's get on with the projects.”

I believe we need to sit down with first nations not only in British Columbia but also throughout Canada. For example, that table today should be a permanent table, where first nations and ministers sit with the Prime Minister every year before you have your first ministers meetings. We need a table to have these discussions at, like we have here. If we do that, it takes care of the consultation. That's one solution.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

I think that's a very reasonable and sensible suggestion, Mr. Phillips.

Chief Schilling, it's the same question for you. Were you meaningfully consulted before the introduction of Bill C-39?

7:55 p.m.

Liard First Nation

Chief Harlan Schilling

No, it was not before—not in my previous office in British Columbia with Daylu Dena Council. I can't speak to whether the Liard First Nation's administration was consulted before my time there.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

Thank you very much.

I'll go back to you, Chief Benedict.

You talked a bit in your opening statement about perhaps taking a step back and looking at a more open and democratic process for this legislation. I take it that you would support a pause on this piece of legislation and perhaps greater time for study.

8 p.m.

Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario

Regional Chief Abram Benedict

Absolutely. Thank you, MP Lawrence, for that.

We are requesting that the bill be broken up for the relevant committees where it would normally go through the process and be studied in. It would be a more fulsome opportunity for rights holders to make submissions through the processes that this institution has used for a very long time.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

I'm going to paraphrase some of the words of some of the Liberal ministers who were before our committee. I think it was pretty clear that it was their belief that the introduction of Bill C-39 would not in any way erode, diminish or interfere with the rights of indigenous peoples.

Would you join me in disagreeing with that statement?

I'll start with you, Chief Benedict, if that's okay.

8 p.m.

Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario

Regional Chief Abram Benedict

I don't know what particular phrases were said by the ministers, but we have always taken the position that when legislation is introduced that could impact or adversely affect the inherent treaty rights of the first nations, which I represent, consultation needs to occur.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

Mr. Phillips.

8 p.m.

Political Executive, First Nations Summit

Robert Phillips

Again, I look for solutions. Whenever I hear concerns, I try to go to whatever meeting with whomever to find those solutions. Whether it's a Liberal government, a Conservative government or whatever, I go to the table. I serve no colour. It's beyond first nations, so I think it's very important that we have that dialogue.

I believe we can have it now. We're having it now. This is the start.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

Go ahead, Chief Schilling.

8 p.m.

Liard First Nation

Chief Harlan Schilling

My feather does not have a colour.

Again, it's about understanding the situation our country is in. With my background being...I served my country. It's about being proactive. I take great honour in being a very young chief and in having great people mentor me, but I understand that we are in tough times. We see these things coming. Again, with the office I have and the team I have, we try to be proactive in order to find the routes that best serve not just the Kaska but also our country.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

Actually, that's a great transition for me. All three of you are open to answering the question.

Contained within Bill C-39 is the fact that the legislation is making Bill C-5 permanent, so it's going to outlive any particular presidency or otherwise. Do you think this is a wise move?

8 p.m.

Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario

Regional Chief Abram Benedict

We had grave reservations about Bill C-5.

I believe that at this current time we have not seen the maximum strength of Bill C-5. I would concur with the previous panel that it was done under the auspice of its being an emergency and had to be put forward. In our region, Bill C-5 has not been used to develop anything. Therefore, it really is hard to say what those impacts will be, but based on everything we have done in an analysis of it, we are not supportive of it becoming permanent legislation.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

Mr. Phillips or Chief Schilling, is there anything you'd like to add to that?

8 p.m.

Political Executive, First Nations Summit

Robert Phillips

Of course in British Columbia, we had big discussions on the pipelines. The pipelines were a big one.

The Prime Minister did go and meet with the Coastal First Nations. They had those discussions and found a remedy, which was to not continue through the north coast. I know that the federal Conservatives are making a push, and I can understand that under the situation.

Again, when you talk with the government, you have to come to the table with the first nations as well.

8 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Clarke, ON

Thank you very much.

It wouldn't be right if I didn't say that I'm very pleased that within the riding of Northumberland—Clarke is Alderville First Nation and Chief Simpson. It is perhaps the best first nation in all the world.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

8 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

You were doing so well there, Mr. Lawrence.

Thank you.

Mr. Bains, it's over to you.