Canada-China Relations Committee on Jan. 30th, 2020

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Is there any additional strategy other than a public or private expression of concern?

[Paul Thoppil]

As Deputy Morgan indicated previously, those are sensitive diplomatic relations that are being done, and I think that in the context of these public proceedings and with the desire to ensure the protection of the individuals concerned, I would not like to elaborate further.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I don't wish to unfairly contrast one detention versus the other, but is there any additional leverage that applies, given the fact that one of these individuals is in fact a Canadian diplomat on leave? Does that offer any additional ability to put pressure on China to become more sensitive to not just Mr. Kovrig's detention but the entire approach? Is that of any assistance at all?

[Marta Morgan]

Mr. Chair, I can assure you that one issue we have raised consistently with the Government of China is the residual diplomatic immunities of Mr. Michael Kovrig, who was one of our colleagues at Global Affairs Canada.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I would think that other countries—most other countries, not just 14 or whatever number you have on your side—would be concerned about that, too. That's something that interferes with international relations generally in dealing with a country like China, assuming that China wants to be part of the world community.

[Marta Morgan]

Diplomatic immunities are a very important part of being able to engage in the very important bilateral relationships that we have around the world and that all countries have around the world with other countries. It's very important to be protected. It's very important for those relationships to be able to exist and to be safe. I think there's general and widespread agreement on that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

Thank you, and I appreciate all of the witnesses coming.

Of course, we're trying to better understand the government's view of the relationship between Canada and the United States. We understand that it's complex. I think the vast majority of Canadians understand that it's complex. I think you'd forgive Canadians for wondering whether we're moving into the incoherent point in time. Canadians do want clarity with regard to the government's current position.

Mr. Thoppil, you made national news last summer when it was revealed that you had reached out to two former ambassadors to ask them to run future communications through the department so that they would not speak freely but would run their communications through the department. What prompted you to make those calls?

[Paul Thoppil]

In my capacity, and that of all of my colleagues at Global Affairs, we are constantly engaging with former heads of mission and retired foreign service officers in countries because they bring a valuable source of knowledge and expertise—

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

It was reported that you had instruction to do that. Who instructed you to make those calls?

[Paul Thoppil]

As I said before, we initiate on our own, as part of our stakeholder engagement—

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

I ask for you to bear with me. I have only five minutes, and I have several questions. Were you given instruction to make those calls?

[Paul Thoppil]

As I said before, I engage and I continue to engage with former heads of mission to get that input.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

Do you do it without instruction?

[Paul Thoppil]

It's unfortunate that in that exchange, with the intent to exchange on complex issues to better inform and keep former heads of mission and former diplomats abreast of current circumstances, there was a clear misunderstanding and communication in that regard. There was, at no time, any pressure put on officials to prevent any former Canadian diplomat from speaking freely and publicly. In fact, we welcome their input, and we welcome that input to us directly and in a public manner.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

So you were not instructed by anybody to make those calls? That was regular communication from your office.

[Paul Thoppil]

As I said before, I continue of my own volition to engage with former heads of mission to seek their input and feedback because they are a rich source of intelligence for us.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

Your intention was just to hear from them, not to convey any messages.

[Paul Thoppil]

As I said, we need their input as long as we engage with academia and business for the development of the advice that we give to ministers of the government.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

Would you be able to provide your notes from that time frame to this committee?

[Paul Thoppil]

I'm sorry?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

Would you have taken notes during those phone calls?

[Paul Thoppil]

No, there were no notes taken.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

Okay.

In terms of the 14 countries, there have been statements made that, of course, we have been undertaking an effort to build some alliances with other countries. The incoherence comes from this: In October of 2019 Canada sent a delegation of soldiers to engage in military games in China. As a matter of fact, it was during the election campaign. This was at the same time, of course, that Canada was seeking to negotiate the release of the Michaels, but China's embassy saw the delegation coming to China differently maybe from how your department may have. As a matter of fact, Beijing's embassy said that Canada's military having sent a big delegation to China was more evidence that the Asian power was not losing friends. As a matter of fact, they viewed that as a demonstration that Canada was developing a stronger relationship with it.

Were there any concerns with regard to sending that delegation? What was the intended message of sending that delegation?

[Marta Morgan]

Mr. Chair, as the most populous country in the world and the second-largest economy, China plays a role in almost all issues of interest to Canada. The relationship is complicated. It is multi-variable. We have strong person-to-person ties; we have strong trade relationships, and we will continue to engage with China on multiple fronts while we work very hard to resolve the bilateral challenges that we have in front of us.