Evidence of meeting #5 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.
We'll now go to the second round. Members have five minutes each.
Mr. Genuis.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Barton, to pick up on what you just said to Mr. Harris, you suggested that McKinsey wasn't aware of the detention camps at the time when the corporate retreat in Kashgar happened. Is that what you said?
6:20 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
I did.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. I ask because these mass detention camps were denounced by a UN committee a week before the retreat happened. Did McKinsey just miss the news item, or...?
6:20 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
Mr. Chair, if you'd like to talk about my background with McKinsey, I'm very happy to keep going. I'm not sure if that's what we want to do in the committee, but I'm very happy to go—
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I control the five minutes. I think this is very important for the public interest, sir, because you're telling me you're not aware of a lot of things—or weren't aware of a lot of things—that are pretty fundamental. You said that McKinsey had this corporate retreat completely unaware that there were concentration camps four miles away.
6:25 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
Mr. Chair, what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to absolve myself or anything. I'm happy to...I'm saying that McKinsey apologized for that having been done; it is my understanding that they were not aware that was the case. That's what I'm saying.
Again, back to some of the earlier comments you made about the situations like the company in the South China Sea, you were saying that McKinsey is working with them and then implying that McKinsey is working on building things, and it's just completely false. All I was saying—
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Order. I just ask members to show respect and make sure that we have a chance to hear from each person, because we have interpreters, of course, and they need to have time to interpret.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Mr. Chair, I think the process is that I control the time, but I'll ask a question and, Mr. Barton, I'd like to hear your response to it.
You have said there was not an awareness of what was happening in these camps by McKinsey, yet there were news items. There were UN reports beforehand. You've said that you're not aware of Canada's policy in the South China Sea. My charge was never that McKinsey was physically building these installations in the South China Sea; it's that McKinsey was advising the companies and working with companies under World Bank sanctions that were in fact doing this. You've said that you're not responsible because it's a big company and so forth, but you set the policy direction.
Are you comfortable that all these things were happening under policy direction you set? Are these the things you consider consistent with your personal values?
6:25 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
Mr. Chair, there's a lot to unpack in that. I'll try to answer it.
One, as I said, on the situation with the retreat and the Uighur detentions, I'm saying that McKinsey has said they were not aware of the case.
As it relates to the South China Sea, as I said, I'm going to follow what the government policy is. We basically believe that we should follow what arbitration says in what they want to do. For any more detail on that, I'm going to have to get advice for what it is, but we believe in what international arbitration says.
I'm not trying to skirt the issues. I'm just trying to say that on McKinsey's side, I happy to go into that as much as you want. I just would be careful about conflating what McKinsey was doing versus what was actually happening.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Sir, I really look forward to seeing that complete list of companies—state-owned companies—that you advised. I hope you'll be able to submit those to the committee.
You said at the beginning of your testimony that you commend what China is doing to try to contain the coronavirus. Part of what China is doing to contain the coronavirus is that when somebody dies of this virus their body is taken away from the families and they're not allowed burial. They're banning Christian funerals.
Are you aware of the human rights abuses that are happening in the context of this so-called effort to contain the coronavirus? Do you want to qualify your initial remarks at all that you commend what China is doing in this respect?
6:25 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
What's going on in China right now with this coronavirus is unbelievable, and I don't think we should underestimate the scale of what's happening and how the infections occur. I've not heard anything that would suggest to me that they're doing this for religious purposes. They're terrified of the spread of where this is, and I think the scale of what's going on is like Berlin in 1948 with the airlifts and getting food in there and so forth. It's an unbelievably high-scale operation. That's what I'm commending them for.
To lock down a city of 11 million people to try to protect all of us from not getting infected, I think, is a very worthy thing, and I commend them for that.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you, Ambassador Barton, for coming such a long way to join us today.
Part of our mandate in this committee is to review consular relations. Can you provide an update on evacuation efforts happening in Wuhan and what other countries are doing to evacuate their citizens?
6:25 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
As I mentioned, we have 373 Canadians who have said they want help. We have 211 on the flight manifest for this plane, which hopefully will leave tomorrow around noon. That leaves a gap. What we're looking at to help in closing that gap from 373 to 211 is talking with the British and the Americans, because they have room on planes and they're right there. I think the minister talked about that this afternoon. That would be the fastest way, but there are all sorts of logistical challenges, so we're looking at that carefully.
At the same time, we're looking at the second plane coming in. We have the plane; it's ready. We just don't want to send an A380 to pick up five people. That's how we're working it.
One of the things that has been quite important in this is the registering of Canadians. I think there were only 91 people who were registered as Canadians on January 10 in Hubei province. As the crisis has emerged, we're now up at 500. We're also asking, what are the other areas in China where we have Canadians who are registering and where is the infection moving? To use that tired expression about where the puck is going, we're trying to figure out where that is ahead of time so that we know what's happening.
Those are some of the things, but the challenge, too, is the logistics on the ground. I spoke to someone this morning, a family that had travelled 250 kilometres to get to the airport, and when they got into the airport there was no more water in the vending machines, and it was cold. We can't get our people into the airport because of the security. Therefore, it's working out those details, and we need to be as responsive as we can.
I don't know if that gives you enough.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Are you in discussions with the Chinese government to allow you more access for the consular officials on the ground, in the example you just mentioned about the water and trying to get in, and so forth?
6:30 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
They're being very helpful. When we raise the issue, they'll say, “Okay, where are they?” They're trying to help themselves as they go through it. We've really beefed up the team that's on the ground, because they're very nervous about the number of people coming in. We've added a second team to go in.
They're being very open on it, but they have very strict controls. It's 10 to 20 stops that people have to go through to get to the airport. We have to help get these people through, so we have very direct communication with them and we've found them to be quite helpful.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
There is enough staff on the ground in Wuhan, but what about if there should be other affected areas?
6:30 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
That's why, again, we actually haven't reduced our embassy staff as much as other countries have, such as Australia or the U.K., because we basically want to have the resources to be able to deal with that. As long as people are not afraid—and they're not—we would like to have those resources.
We're also reallocating people. We've moved people from immigration, where there's not a lot of activity. There are not a lot of tourists flying. We've moved them—
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
I'm sorry, but I'm going to cut you off so I can ask my next question.
China does not recognize dual citizenship. We know there are Canadians who enter China with a Chinese passport, and now they are not allowed to leave Wuhan. What is being done to help these Canadian citizens? Also, what is being done to help Canadian permanent residents?
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Before you go on, Ambassador, I want to ask all members to try to make sure that when a question is asked, the witness has an opportunity to answer. Of course, I think there was, but I just want to point that out.
Ambassador.
6:30 p.m.
Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China
Sure. I'll reply quickly.
China has quite strict rules about consular services and how those work with permanent residents, and so forth. They do that with all countries. What we don't want to do, and they've agreed with this, is break up families. They're being helpful on that. I've had a number of conversation.
I'm a pipsqueak in it, because the team is doing it, but just to check in, where you have a husband who is a Canadian citizen, you have a permanent resident, and then you have a one-year-old who is being breast-fed. They're all going. They normally wouldn't, but they want to keep the families together. However, they have a policy that we have to deal with. We're trying to push it in other cases.