Canada-China Relations Committee on May 31st, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 27 of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting for its study of Canada-China relations.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021.

Before turning to our witnesses, I'd like to ask if there are any objections to setting aside 10 minutes at the end of today's meeting—so we would end 10 minutes early—to quickly discuss a few items relating to committee business.

Seeing none—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, that wasn't on the notice, and we only have an hour with NSICOP. I suggest that we proceed with the agenda and, if necessary, extend by 10 minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

That may be possible. We'll see. We'll carry on for now.

I would like to welcome our first witnesses for tonight. As an individual, we have Chemi Lhamo, community health lead; and from the Uyghur Research Institute, we have Rukiye Turdush, research director and Uyghur rights advocate.

Thank you very much for being here tonight.

We'll start with the opening remarks from Ms. Lhamo, followed by Ms. Turdush.

Ms. Lhamo, please proceed. You have five minutes.

[Chemi Lhamo, Community Health Lead, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Tashi Delek, Anee, hello, I'm Chemi Lhamo.

Before I begin, I want to acknowledge and express my gratitude to the original caretakers of this land, the elders of the past and present, and to any who should have been here, or may be here physically, mentally and spiritually.

My immigrant parents came from the land of snow—Tibet—which, according to Freedom House, is the least free country alongside Syria. A recent Human Rights Watch report stated that children as young as three years old are having their cultural identity stripped away, which to me is another repeat of the horrors of Canada's and Australia's residential schools where indigenous children were killed or forcibly assimilated into the settler society.

Time and time again, we’ve seen the Chinese government silence voices of Tibetans, Uighurs, Hong Kongers and southern Mongolians. There's no doubt that Chinese government intimidation and geopolitical bullying through aggression and expansion across borders from the South China Sea to the India-Tibet border presents a clear threat to both regional and global security.

However, today, let me share with you my experiences of the CCP attempting to silence and infringe upon my right to freedom of speech and expression, even in an open and democratic society like Canada.

In 2019, I became the target of wrath, most likely crafted by the Chinese Communist Party, when I ran for student elections at the University of Toronto Scarborough. Before the election had even begun, or results had even come out, my phone had started going off with notifications. There were over 10,000 comments on my social media posts and then an online petition against me for simply being a candidate because of my Tibetan identity—not because of my work or my capabilities.

The comments were harsh. They included rape and death threats targeting not just me, but my family. There were comments saying that the bullet that would go through me was made in China, or things like if they saw me, they would punch me. There was even one that I still recall to this day that said that my mom was dead. I kid you not. I recall having to call my mother to check in on her without frightening her.

Throughout my presidential term, although things slowed down on social media because of the international support I received, I continued to receive occasional threats and dehumanizing and degrading comments until this day. Additionally, prior to COVID-19, students on my campus who threatened to kill and rape me roamed freely around my campus and pointed, stared, followed and took photos of people whom I communicated with. This resulted in friends actually escorting me to the washrooms.

Community members of the allied nations who are subjected to the CCP’s colonial violence aren’t alien to these tactics. We have witnessed China’s interference and influence not just on our university campuses, but also in our communities.

The long-arm tactics of the CCP is also affecting Chinese international students who are paying four to five times more for an education, but are having to become incognito spies for the embassy or who get bullied to follow party lines and protest initiatives that are deemed threatening, instead of focusing on their education. Anonymous Chinese students have written to their student unions saying they're terrified by the presence of organizations like Canadian CSSAs, which are reporting campus activities to the Chinese government.

We’ve seen this overt influence in our academic institutions, but the threat is widespread. The CCP propaganda is infiltrating our communities and insidiously placing itself in progressive spaces, conflating anti-CCP sentiments to be part of the rise of anti-Asian hatred.

To this day my mother worries way more than required for my well-being because of these threats.

No Canadian on Canadian soil who wishes to serve their community should have to check if they're being followed. No student leader should have to see active groups on their campus self-censoring themselves because of the fear of going through what I had to go through. No mother should have to worry about their child being punched, raped or killed for standing up for something they care about.

Many Canadians, including my parents, were stateless refugees because of the illegal occupation of their countries and they had to move several times to find a safe home for their kids. Eventually, after long years of being transnational families and being displaced, they found a home in Canada, only to be intimidated and subjected to the long-arm tactics of the CCP. Canada is meant to empower youth, not embolden and support, through their silence, the ones who kidnap children and strip them away from their parents.

There's no doubt that the Chinese government ruthlessly tries to crush all dissent. I’d like to encourage the honourable members here today and our government to please listen to your Canadians and follow up with concrete actions.

I can tell you more through a report.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lhamo.

Mrs. Turdush, please proceed. You have five minutes.

[Rukiye Turdush, Research Director, Uyghur Rights Advocate, Uyghur Research Institute]

Good evening. My name is Rukiye Turdush. I am an ethnic Uighur Canadian and a Canadian citizen. I would like to testify today on my personal experience and my community's experience regarding China's threat in Canada.

On February 11, 2019, I was invited by McMaster University's Muslim Students' Association to give a speech about the ongoing genocide in East Turkestan. During my speech, a few Chinese students tried to disturb me. One of them filmed the whole presentation and verbally assaulted me with foul language.

I later received from someone leaked screen shot evidence of those Chinese students' group conversation during my speech. They discussed how to disturb me and send recorded video to the group. The guy who recorded me said, “I have all the materials if anyone needs them.” This was clearly intelligence gathering.

Another one said, “How come there are lots of people in this event? We have been told by the embassy to report this event to the Chinese student association and the school.” That means the Chinese embassy informed those Chinese students about the event in advance and instructed them what to do. He also said, “Find out who is her son”, so they can look for my son for whatever purpose. I suspect this person could be a Chinese diplomat or a covert agent.

McMaster's Chinese Student's Association and academics published a joint statement on February 13, and the language of the statement exactly echoes the language of the Chinese Communist Party's false propaganda line. The statement also mentioned that they have reported the incident to the Chinese embassy and sent a complaint letter to the school administration. Later, the embassy of China in Ottawa published a statement praising the so-called patriotism of these students who attacked my freedom of speech.

In fact, my speech was about evidence of China's well-planned, organized, ongoing genocide in East Turkestan. What is clear is that the Chinese Communist Party has encouraged a large number of Chinese students who study in our country to export their propaganda and China's autocratic values to our Canadian soil. They actively tried to undermine Canadian democratic values and freedom of expression.

Chinese police also threaten Uighur Canadian students from 5,000 miles away. Those Uighur students are constantly harassed through video calls that ask them for their school address and information about their status in Canada. Some had no choice but to officially disown the parent-child relationship to protect their parents back home.

Chinese cyber espionage was also very active for many years. They used to keep sending me viruses to destroy my computers and email, especially my blog. For many years, Chinese trolls threatened me through Twitter and YouTube, saying “be careful” and “you are looking for your own death”. I used to ignore them and block them.

Since the McMaster incident attracted huge media attention, they have changed their tactics. They have started to claim that I am a CIA agent funded by the NED and creating fake news, despite the fact that I am not getting any funding from any organization.

I am giving this testimony here today not only because of my personal safety or other human rights activists' safety, but also and most importantly because of the tremendous danger that China poses to the democratic world order, to human rights and to Canadian sovereignty. It is about future of our kids.

That's why the Canadian government should charge covert Chinese agents working for the United Front and pushing the Chinese community to manipulate and influence the Canadian democratic system for the benefit of the CCP. Bring them to court and pass new legislation to define their activity as a crime.

The Canadian government should expel the Chinese diplomats who investigate and encourage the Chinese community and Chinese students to gather intelligence.

To block the CCP's influence and espionage activity in Canada as well as to deal with the digital authoritarianism that enables Uighur genocide, the Canadian government should hold hearings that focus on the potential complicity of Canadian universities. Universities should be required to report all co-operation with Chinese research institutes and companies in fields such as artificial intelligence, big data, smart policing and smart cities, biotech and others.

The Canadian government should support Canadian academics, students, journalists and activists. At the same time, it should crack down on China's illegal espionage activity and China's funding of fake Canadian NGOs. It should also crack down on individuals who deny China's Uighur genocide, attack human rights activists and spread fake news and Chinese state party propaganda on Canadian soil.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Turdush.

We'll now go to our first round of questions, starting with Mr. Genuis for six minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank our witnesses for their courageous advocacy and important testimony.

Ms. Lhamo spoke about the serious problem of the conflation of anti-CCP sentiment with anti-Asian racism and the way in which the government of China seeks to co-opt progressive discourse to cover for its own deeply racist and colonial policies.

Last week in question period, in response to legitimate questions raised about national security issues, we saw this kind of conflation between anti-CCP statements and anti-Asian racism advanced by the Prime Minister himself. We know that this false conflation is itself a serious threat to Asian Canadians. The idea that Asian Canadians are somehow an extension of the CCP is a deeply racist idea, and it also feeds into the Government of China's narrative, which seeks to threaten Asian Canadians to do its bidding.

I'd like to hear from both of the witnesses as to what their response was to the Prime Minister's comments last week, and what we can do, as politicians, to clearly establish the difference between criticizing the CCP and anti-Asian racism.

[Rukiye Turdush]

I would like to answer this question.

I think our Prime Minister is really confused. I don't think that the CCP and anti-Asian racism have to be considered or seen as together, because the CCP, the Communist Party, is ruling the Chinese people and in many places in the Chinese community in Canada and elsewhere. Chinese people and the CCP are totally different. Most of them are brainwashed. They are manipulated.

If we are against the CCP, that does not mean we're against the Chinese people. It's nothing to do with racism or anti-Asian...or anything. I really didn't get why he said that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Ms. Lhamo, do you want to follow up?

[Chemi Lhamo]

Thank you, MP Genuis, for that question.

If you want to tackle anti-Asian racism, the first way to address that is by listening to the Asian voices in your country—your constituents. To folks who claim to be standing up against anti-Asian hatred or racism, please listen to your constituents; listen to the Asian voices.

As an Asian woman, let me tell you, there is a bigger target on my back, and conflating the idea of anti-CCP with anti-Asian is much more or further disrespect to Asian folks. I say this because Asia is much larger than just China. There are 40 other different countries. That is not only just a disservice to other Asian Canadians; it is also a disservice to Chinese Canadians.

There is a serious issue. There has been a huge rise in anti-Asian sentiment. There has been an over 700% rise I think in the Vancouver area. How are we addressing that? Are we going to be getting stuck in the politics of what is anti-Asian or anti-CCP, or are we going to start addressing the actual issues that are being faced by Canadians? It's as simple as that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much. I think that is such important testimony, and I hope it's taken to heart by all members, and by parliamentarians who aren't part of this committee.

I want to ask specifically about what happens when a person is a victim of foreign state-backed interference.

We've talked in the past about motion M-55, which is a private member's motion that I put forward to try to push for greater coordination, supports and a strategy, because we've heard that there often isn't the support there. Who do you call when you experience these kinds of things? What kinds of supports come into play?

Could you both share—and I probably have enough time for 45 seconds for each of you—how you have tried to access support from authorities, what kinds of experiences you had doing that and how we can do better in supporting victims?

[Chemi Lhamo]

Thank you.

In my remarks, I didn't refer to some of the concrete actions that folks can take, because I've done multiple testimonies and spoken to various officials, including Global Affairs twice in meetings. We have submitted an official report, with Amnesty, on harassment and intimidation specifically faced by human rights activists speaking against Chinese colonial violence.

To your question, MP Genuis, I've personally spoken to Toronto Police, RCMP, CSIS. Folks, I've just been pointed from one direction to the other.

I've spoken to multiple parliamentarians, and until this day, I can guarantee you that I have not received a single piece of paper that has said, “Here you go, Chemi. These are all the threats you've received. These are all the criminal offences.” These are death threats and rape threats, and folks who have personally messaged me and told me, “No, b-i-t-c-h. I am here”, when I said, “Oh, are these just online?” These are personal messages.

I don't know how many times I have to tell you this again and again. As a psychology student, let me tell you, these times when I have to tell my story repeatedly are triggering and traumatizing.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you. We're almost out of time.

Ms. Turdush, do you want to quickly chime in on this? We should bring in the Amnesty report as well, because I think that is very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry, that is all the time, so we'll have to go on.

I'm sorry, Ms. Turdush. Hopefully someone else will ask you that, or Mr. Genuis may get another chance.

We'll now go on to Ms. Zann for six minutes, please.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I'd just like to say thank you so much to the witnesses for coming to the committee today.

As a female politician and parliamentarian, I too have been the subject of many threats and death threats, harassment and misogynistic social media posts to the point that it's been very difficult to handle. I know how you must be feeling, and it is not a pleasant thing at all.

I want to acknowledge that nobody should have to go through that. For women, they often use the same threats, believe me, over and over again. It's regurgitated, like bots or something like that. They just say the same thing over and over again.

So, you're not alone. That said, I want to ask you about the threats that families or activists are receiving back home.

Could you both perhaps expand on that a little bit? Chemi, could you go first, and then Ms. Turdush? Thank you.

[Chemi Lhamo]

I'll keep it short, so Rukiye can have more time.

Thank you for that question. For me personally, displacement comes with a cost. I personally have never seen Tibet. I am of Tibetan descent but I've never seen Tibet, and getting a visa to even access that country is challenging.

My parents' first cousins—who are my uncles'...—and my first, second and third cousins, I don't know them. I yearn to be able to know them someday.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. Turdush.

[Rukiye Turdush]

My direct family members are in Canada, but I have close relatives back home in East Turkestan. All of my relatives back home receive threats and are punished terribly back home. I was raised by my grandmother, but I haven't had contact with her since 2009, because the Chinese police officers pressured her and told her, “You have to tell your granddaughter to shut up.” If not, she would have trouble.

Once she told me that, I cut the connection with her, but I didn't shut up, of course. I didn't contact my grandmother, and she passed away one year after I stopped contacting her. All of my cousins and friends cut connections with me because of my activism, because the police bothered them whenever I contacted them by phone, even though I didn't talk about any sensitive issues. Most of them were arrested in 2017. Maybe some of them I didn't contact, and so I don't know if they were arrested or not. This is happening to every Uighur Canadian or other Uighurs in the diaspora.

This is exactly the example of China's genocide. The intention is to cut the connection, break the lineage and break the origin.

Thank you.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I don't have much time, but I'd like to ask this. I know that CSIS and the RCMP have taken measures to promote their 1-800 numbers to students who are experiencing academic harassment. Have you or any of your colleagues had the opportunity to use any of those numbers? I'm told that ISI is actually better at integrating national security considerations into research partnerships, so what do you advise us to do to try to improve things?

[Chemi Lhamo]

The simple answer is no.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Is the 1-800 number not working, or you have tried...?

[Chemi Lhamo]

No, not a single agent has referred me to that number. I recently actually spoke to Global Affairs officials. There were RCMP members who suggested it. However, in terms of what you can do, please refer to page 51 of the harassment and intimidation report of Amnesty....

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. Turdush, have you tried the 1-800 number, or has anybody?

[Rukiye Turdush]

No, I didn't. I never thought about it. When the McMaster incidents happened, I just worried about my son too much, because it was disturbing when they looked for my son.

I did a police report, but after that some people suggested that we would have to go to court and I was thinking that this is not a civil issue. This is not the issue between me and the international Chinese students. This is China's influence on Canada, so governments should deal with it; so I didn't go to the court.

I think the Canadian government should give more power to CSIS or other agencies so they can shut all the loopholes where Chinese espionage has infiltrated into Canada.

So, I didn't do anything.