Canada-China Relations Committee on May 31st, 2021

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

From your testimony, I gather there does need to be better coordination between our public institutions, universities, law enforcement agencies and security agencies on tackling foreign interference. CSIS does have an academic outreach program, which often includes conferences or workshops to tackle these topics.

Their recent outreach to post-secondary institutions is a good example, I think, of how CSIS is trying to connect with important stakeholders to ensure that Canadians remain safe and that our interests are protected from foreign-based threats.

Perhaps, if we have time, you could provide any suggestion that would increase the coordination between the agencies and the universities.

[Rukiye Turdush]

Yes, it will be better when the Canadian intelligence service and the other Canadian agencies and institutions have more power, when they coordinate to extend information.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

To work together.

[Rukiye Turdush]

Yes, to work together to block the Chinese influence.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ms. Zann.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank Ms. Turdush and Ms. Lhamo very much for being with us tonight.

Ladies, you are an example of strength, especially given the circumstances under which you come to testify before us. I think you should serve as an example to all of us.

My question is about the general involvement of the Chinese Communist Party in the actions against you. We know that students at McMaster University were praised, but some people might believe that the students may have taken some action on their own, organically.

Can you give us any examples that lead to you believe that this is coming from the Chinese Communist Party? I would also like you to talk about how it's structured. Do events all happen at the same time, as if someone has initiated the process?

[Rukiye Turdush]

This is a very good question. I would like to answer it.

I really suspect it was organized by the Chinese embassy or consulate, because I received a screenshot of those Chinese students doing a WeChat group. Somebody took a screenshot and sent it to me. All of them were Chinese student association students, and some people had no names.

When the guy recorded my video speech and sent it to the group chat, somebody asked, how come there are a lot of people in this room? The Chinese embassy already—he said in Chinese, yijing—told us to report this event to the Chinese student association and the school. They don't want a lot of people coming to this space. They don't want this event to happen. So the Chinese embassy told those students and instructed them what to do in advance. That's why I heavily suspect they were instructed by the Chinese embassy.

I didn't do anything. I didn't give media.... I didn't do anything. These students, right away, published a statement on February 13. They said that they told the school and sent a letter to the Chinese embassy. They say [Inaudible—Editor]. So they have very close contact. They report everything to the Chinese embassy. And the Chinese embassy instructed them in advance of many things—that's very obvious. That's why I think this is not organized by patriotic Chinese students. There is the Chinese embassy's hand in this event.

[Chemi Lhamo]

I can give you two short examples.

One, personally, is an account of people within my circle who flipped 180 degrees when it became international news, folks who wanted to actually be part of my slate—I'm sure you folks are aware, with elections—because I was running for president. So there was a 180-degree turn, asking me for actual statements about what my stance was on Tibet. That was my personal experience, knowing that they, themselves, were facing intimidation of their families back home.

Number two, in 2017 I organized an event at the U of T downtown with Lobsang Sangay, who is the former CEO of the Central Tibetan Administration. Overnight we had students show up, protesting against the event. But then when I questioned them and welcomed them inside the event, they chose not to and said they had no information about why they were there. It was as simple as that.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Since I don't have much time left, I'll ask two questions in one.

You spoke of the Chinese Communist Party's tactics, which can be insidious at times. For example, attempts have been made to discredit you and circulate false information rather than attack or threaten you directly.

What will the consequences be if these tactics become more and more insidious? To combat this, would it be a good idea to have a one-stop shop where complaints could be received? That way, you could get advice. You would also have statistics and you could raise public awareness of what is going on. You could show that the situation is real.

[Rukiye Turdush]

Thank you.

[Chemi Lhamo]

Thank you for saying that, because that is actually among the recommendations in the report submitted to Global Affairs in March 2020; it's actually an updated report. There is a recommendation for developing a centralized focal point within the government to support, just as a start—and those are the low-hanging fruit.... We haven't even addressed all of the other concerns that talk about independent public investigations into harassment and also looking at the instrumentalization of international students and the ways they are being used.

In terms of those insidious ways, as a Canadian let me tell you that I'm involved in organizing spaces, and police and all these levels of security that you have—the highest of the high—are not able to support me. Instead, I'm teaching them about international geopolitics, which is not something I'm getting paid for. In a personal space, where do I belong? Where do I go, if even within the spaces in which I'm talking about housing justice, people indicate “you're racist” to me because I'm talking out against the Chinese government.

Where do I go? Please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Would keeping statistics on complaints help give you credibility, especially with the Canadian public?

[Rukiye Turdush]

Sure. For example, I collected from my community and from my own self a bunch of screen shots from what they say on social media showing how they have changed their tactics.

For example, after the McMaster incident, they changed their tactics because it caused huge media attention. China started to be careful, then they changed their tactics. They're not slurring me in that threatening—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, Ms. Turdush, but I have to go to the next questioner.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ms. Normandin.

We'll now go on to Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you both for coming to testify at our committee. It's certainly a brave thing to do, although you've been doing it for some time, so I commend you for your persistence as well.

Let me first ask Ms. Llamo a question, Chair.

You talked about how you ran for president of the student union at the University of Toronto Scarborough. I was a student politician too. I'm assuming you weren't running on a Tibetan platform, that you were running on a student platform.

Am I right about that, or were there elements of it in part of your program?

[Chemi Lhamo]

You're absolutely right, but prior to that I've actually been the Racialized Students' Collective coordinator. I was vice-president, equity. I'm a tri-campus athlete. I've been serving the chemistry society and the pre-med society as well in leadership positions.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You had, then, a very broad background of leadership that was important to your potential leadership role, and you were elected.

Did this harassment start after you were elected, or was it part of the campaign as well?

[Chemi Lhamo]

This could actually answer part of Ms. Normandin's question as well.

The night the elections were over, there was some sort of connection to the Chinese embassy, because there was a petition that started overnight at the end of the elections, because they came to find out that there was a so-called pro-Tibet person, or a Tibetan person running. They found out at that time, and then immediately there was a petition, which had 10,000 signatures by the following day. When my results came out the following day, of course my social media accounts were bombarded with threats.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The petition was signed by 10,000 people. That is an awful lot of people. Is it your belief that those 10,000 individual people actually existed and that they were somehow or other corralled by the Chinese government—the Chinese Communist Party or Chinese agents acting in Canada? Is that your understanding of what happened?

[Chemi Lhamo]

Sure. I think it was the latter, Jack. You just mentioned that you're a former student politician, so you know how hard it is to get students to go out and vote. I was rallying for three straight days, and actually my Tibetan new year—lunar new year—coincided with it. In my traditional garb I was there saying, let's go out and vote—trying to get people to vote.

We had a turnout of a maximum 2,000 people, and the petition was by 10,000 people who were against me for some reason, saying that they were against my views as a Tibetan person.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Did they have Tibetan names? Were they actually Tibetans? Were they Chinese individuals? You don't know.

[Chemi Lhamo]

No, I don't know. Actually, in the activism spaces we say that's the 50 Cent Army, most likely bought folks who are being pressured, actually, by the Chinese embassy to make these comments and threats.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I'm concluding, in a practical sense, that it seems to be a very significant effort by someone to organize such a thing. Were these people who identified themselves by name, or was it just some sort of a pile on? I don't know how social media works with petitions like that, but were there, do you think, that many individuals who were influenced to do that?

[Chemi Lhamo]

Eventually, the petition was taken down, and the person who started the petition initially wrote out a statement. With regard to the tens of thousands of signatures, I'm not sure. They could be bots, because in terms of Tibetan population, there are about three Tibetans maximum out of the 14,000 individuals on my campus.

On my social media accounts, however, I did have experiences of students who had their U of T cards, their student cards, on their social media pages, and who were sending me death threats. That's exactly how I knew, Jack, that these are actual students on my campus threatening me. Security, at whichever level, even your government's level, did not do anything to protect me from these students who are roaming around freely.