Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[Jeff Nankivell]

I will not be in a position to comment on policy matters when a policy has not been announced yet by the Government of Canada. As the committee knows, the government has already signalled it is considering further measures in the area of immigration.

I understand that measures are currently under consideration by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, and they'll be the ones best placed to comment on that at the appropriate time.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I commend your caution, Mr. Nankivell, but I will nevertheless take the opportunity to continue with the question that was asked by Mr. Chong.

You told us that you are prepared for any eventuality. On the one hand, is this one of the contingencies you are preparing for? On the other hand, in the event that, as Mr. Chong asked, dissidents who are not necessarily Canadian citizens seek asylum at the consulate, what would be the reaction?

[Jeff Nankivell]

The global policy of Canada, similar to most other countries, is that our diplomatic missions, including consulates, do not accept applications of asylum at our offices from people who are in their own territory.

There are avenues to become accepted as a refugee in Canada, but they involve making a claim in a third country or, for people who are already in Canada, making a claim for asylum, which, as the committee knows, some people from Hong Kong have done in recent times.

People who present themselves at the door to make a claim—and we haven't had any yet, as I've mentioned—we would provide them with the information about how the system works in Canada but we're not in a position to welcome them inside or to accept a claim from them, as they are in their own territory.

In terms of policies that are under consideration, again I will have to be a bit cautious. In the elaboration of policies, of course, preparatory work would be part of that process to make sure we have the resources in place. The immigration section we have in our office in Hong Kong is one of the largest we have anywhere in the world. It's currently processing files for missions in other parts of the world that are unable to do their work properly because of COVID, places in Africa and South Asia, so we have a lot of capacity on the ground. We have 60 people in our immigration section and they're flexible to be able to do different things.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

With the bells ringing, we'll now have Mr. Harris for six minutes, and then with a slight modification in the time, we'll have Mr. Paul-Hus for four minutes, Ms. Zann for four minutes, Mr. Bergeron for two minutes, Mr. Harris for two minutes and then we'll wrap up. That will allow us to have relatively equal time within the parameters we have.

Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Nankivell, for coming this morning and for your very comprehensive remarks.

First I would like to associate myself with Mr. Chong's opening remarks about the set-up of the 1985 United Kingdom-People's Republic of China treaty and merely add that not only did Canada witness it, but Canada, among other countries, was also asked by the parties, including the People's Republic of China, to provide their help and assistance in assuring the success of the one country, two systems agreement. There is an invitation there for Canada to be involved in ensuring its success, and that obviously includes some of the things we're doing now.

First of all, about the 300,000 Canadians we talk about from time to time, as you say, it is a larger portion than those who have identified themselves to the consulate. When we're talking about Canadians in that context, are we talking about people who are Canadians who have gone to China to live or could that include long-term residents of Hong Kong who hold dual citizenship?

[Jeff Nankivell]

The findings of the survey, and I think they hold true generally today, are that the vast majority, some 83%, are dual citizens. They're residents of Hong Kong and they are citizens of Canada. Of the many people I've met, there were a lot of families of people went to Canada in the late 1980s and the early 1990s when we were averaging, for some years, around 25,000 or 30,000 immigrants from Kong Hong per year landing in Canada. Many of those people came back in the late 1990s, after 1997. They have families in Hong Kong. Their children are Canadian citizens. The lion's share of the community we have here would be precisely that, people who are dual citizens.

There's been a small but growing share over the years of people who are originally from mainland China who became Canadians and who have made their way to Hong Kong. Then, probably less than 10% are Canadians who do not hold either Hong Kong or China—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

May I cut you off slightly to ask a follow-up question on that? We have heard the Chinese ambassador to Canada, Mr. Cong, use the term “Canadian passport holders” when talking about Canadians in Hong Kong. That strikes me as somewhat ominous, in the sense that the Chinese government may not recognize their Canadian citizenship. I would offer the observation for your comment. It seems to me that the ones who returned to Hong Kong, particularly after 1997, are extremely interested, shall we say, in the one country, two systems approach and very dependent upon that in their confidence in returning to Hong Kong.

What comment would you have on that observation of using the term “Canadian passport holders”? Does that give you a sense of concern?

[Jeff Nankivell]

Let me say, first of all, that it's not a term you will hear me or anyone on our staff using. We have Canadian citizens. A citizen is a citizen. Even though a lot of people I meet in Hong Kong describe themselves that way, there are only citizens.

It's a very large community. There are people who have deep family ties and roots in Hong Kong. They are concerned about the preservation of their freedoms in Hong Kong. I think we're all on the same page there.

It's concerning, as Minister Champagne has said. The Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have both remarked on the inappropriate nature of Ambassador Cong's remarks, saying that it's unacceptable language.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

In speaking of that language, on October 15 Ambassador Cong also talked about urging Canada not to deal with what he called “violent criminals” in Hong Kong who are subject to the laws that they're carrying out. He used this phrase three times in one of his statements.

It seems to me, and perhaps you can correct me if I'm wrong, that people like the one person who was arrested on October 29, by the name of Mr. Chung, I believe, was arrested for posting information and acting in a way supportive of pro-democracy activities. Is there any way people like him can be considered violent criminals?

[Jeff Nankivell]

Indeed, this is the concerning thing for us about the national security law and why we are trying to raise awareness of the changes this brings to Hong Kong. We have, for the first time really, political offences and political crimes in Hong Kong, and they constitute a big concern.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

We'll now proceed to Mr. Paul-Hus for four minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Nankivell, I'd like to ask you a question about the business community. Professor Arne Kislenko, a national security expert from Ryerson University, told the Chronicle Herald on July 14 that you have to be very careful about sending employees of Canadian companies to Hong Kong, and that you can't trust China because you're being spied on all the time, even on Twitter and Facebook.

Do you think business people should be extremely careful when sending workers to Hong Kong?

[Jeff Nankivell]

We have warned Canadian businesses that there are new risks since the national security law came in. We have Canadian companies that do employ a lot of people in Hong Kong. We know from talking with them that they're working with their legal counsels to review what kinds of vulnerabilities they may have. It's early days, but up to now we have not seen arbitrary application of these new powers in the way of anything like the arbitrary detention of Mr. Spavor and Mr. Kovrig. We don't have that experience yet, but we have warned companies and our travel advice reflects that. It's basically similar now to the travel advice we have for mainland China when it comes to political matters.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

In your speech, you mentioned that 204 consular requests were made in connection with civil unrest or visits to Canadians who were hospitalized or imprisoned. Apart from the two Michaels and Mr. Schellenberg, are there any other Canadians currently in prison?

[Jeff Nankivell]

There have been Canadians, but not under the national security law. So far, under the national security law, we are not aware of any Canadians having been arrested. In the cases that I'm talking about we had 14 cases related to the civil unrest. These are people who were arrested in the course of major protests. For instance, we had a number of young Canadian citizens arrested at the site of the Hong Kong Polytechnic University, where there were major clashes between the police and protestors. For the most part, nine of them were arrested altogether in this period. They were arrested not for these new offences under the national security law, but they were arrested initially on suspicion of things like participating in an unlawful assembly. All of those cases have now been resolved. Most of them were released very quickly without charge. We have only one ongoing case of someone who is on bail and facing charges.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

My last question will be brief, as I only have 30 seconds left.

Could you tell the committee about cyber-attacks on the Consulate General? Were there any cyber-attacks in 2018, 2019 or 2020 originating from China? Are you concerned about espionage at the Consulate General of Canada in Hong Kong?

You do not have to answer today, but if you have any information about this, please share it with the committee; we would need a report.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus. That's the time.

We'll go to Ms. Zann, please, for four minutes.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you so much, Mr. Nankivell.

Given the new national security law that's been introduced in China, should Canadians who have spoken, written or acted in support of Hong Kong's freedoms and autonomy, even members of this committee, avoid travelling to Hong Kong, the People's Republic of China or countries that are known to have close relations with China?

[Jeff Nankivell]

At this point, we don't have any experience of application of the new national security law in this area of extraterritoriality, which is of concern to us. I think the kinds of judgments that one would need to make would be, in our view, similar now, on certain topics, to the judgments one would make about travelling to mainland China, if one had been an outspoken advocate on sensitive issues with regard to mainland China, such as on Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan independence or something like that.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

What about just asking questions, as we have been on this committee?

[Jeff Nankivell]

At this time we do not assess that by participating in the asking of questions in a committee there's any likelihood that somebody would be prosecuted under the national security law in Hong Kong in that context.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

Have Hong Kong authorities requested any meetings with Canadian authorities in relation to any Canadian statements, policies or debates about the national security law and the 2019 protests in Hong Kong?

[Jeff Nankivell]

We have had many meetings of different kinds. One form it takes.... We have approached the Hong Kong government and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to make representations to them many times over the last 18 months on these different issues. When the Hong Kong government seeks us out, it's usually in the form of a group meeting with the consulates and chambers of commerce, where they do reach out to give their side of issues and to register their unhappiness about when statements are made. We do hear from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of China directly in Ottawa, in Beijing and in Hong Kong at times.

When a Canadian statement is made, we do get direct representation from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In the China-Hong Kong system it is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Peoples's Republic of China that has the lead responsibility for managing foreign relations. They certainly have been in touch with us regularly.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

Are there any concerns about Hong Kong authorities denying the freedom to exit Hong Kong through passport confiscation or any other measures?

[Jeff Nankivell]

As I mentioned, we haven't seen any indication of that up to now. Certainly, some people are currently prevented from leaving Hong Kong because their passport has been confiscated through a bail process. We haven't seen that kind of arbitrary application either for Canadians or for anyone else from Hong Kong. It's the kind of thing we know happens in mainland China, that sort of exit ban, where you find out when you get to the airport that you're on a list. However, we have not seen any evidence of that to date in Hong Kong.