Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Welcome to meeting number three of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations. Pursuant to the motion adopted on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

Unless there are any objections from committee members, I'm going to dispense with some of the technical information about how these meetings proceed in a hybrid format and proceed directly to welcoming the consul general of Canada in Hong Kong and Macao, Mr. Jeff Nankivell.

We are having a technical problem with interpretation at the moment. Normally we would have five minutes for the statement, but we'll have effectively five minutes for both official languages. Because we're still resolving these technical issues, we will have to briefly suspend the meeting after the opening statement. We will reconvene the meeting once interpretation is functioning for the question and answer.

Mr. Nankivell, thank you for your service to Canada and for your flexibility today especially.

Please proceed.

[Jeff Nankivell, Consul General of Canada in Hong Kong and Macao, Global Affairs Canada, Consulate General of Canada in Hong Kong and Macao]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, Hong Kong is home to a large Canadian community. The ties with Canada are broad and deep.

In the past 18 months, this city of such importance to Canada has experienced dramatic political, social and legal change. Throughout this period, the Government of Canada, including our team of 150 staff at the Consulate General of Canada, has worked with a particular focus in two areas.

One is raising Canada's concerns about threats to the integrity of Hong Kong's institutions, human rights and rule of law under the one country, two systems framework. The other is attending to the well-being of Hong Kong's huge community of Canadian citizens to ensure that their safety, freedom and ability to prosper are maintained.

The committee has already heard extensively about Hong Kongers standing up for their human rights during seven months of extraordinary demonstrations in 2019. You've also heard how the national security law was imposed on Hong Kong by China’s National People's Congress in a secretive process fundamentally at odds with common law principles.

Canada and other countries have noted that the law contravenes Hong Kong's Basic Law, China's treaty obligations under the Sino-British Joint Declaration and Hong Kong's commitments under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

The committee has heard about deeply concerning aspects of the new law from leading legal experts. The Government of Canada shares their concerns, and I would be happy to elaborate.

In response to the imposition and implementation of the national security law, Canada has taken a number of actions, including the following.

First, we updated our travel advice for Hong Kong to warn of the new risk of arbitrary detention and possible removal to mainland China on national security grounds. Each time this advice is updated, we email the Canadians on our consular registration list and publicize the advice through our consulate Facebook page, which now has over 49,000 followers, and through extensive presentations to Canadian community organizations.

Second, Canada was the first of nine countries to suspend its extradition treaty with Hong Kong.

Third, Canada’s export controls were amended on July 7 to treat the export of sensitive goods to Hong Kong in the same manner as goods destined for mainland China.

Fourth, working closely with like-minded countries in Hong Kong, in Beijing, across capitals and at the United Nations, Canada has issued a series of statements on Hong Kong, at the level of minister or higher. There's been at least one such high-level statement every month from April through August, and again in October.

We have also consistently raised these concerns directly, in private and public meetings, with representatives of the Hong Kong government and with China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Beijing, Hong Kong and Ottawa. In doing so, we have at every opportunity also called for the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor and clemency for Robert Schellenberg, and have questioned publicly whether such arbitrary actions in mainland China could happen in Hong Kong under the National Security Law.

We continue to engage with local civil society organizations, political leaders, activists, legal experts, academics and journalists to gather their views on the local situation. We also continue to work to advance Canadian human rights priorities and values through local programming, as we have done for many years.

Consulate General staff have also attended key court hearings of pro-democracy activists and political leaders, in coordination with colleagues from the European Union.

In terms of engaging and assisting Canadians, I would add that since the outset of last year’s period of civil unrest, we have undertaken a range of actions to address the risks faced by Canadians. We provided direct consular assistance to Canadians. Since June 2019, our team has responded to 204 requests for consular service arising from the civil unrest, ranging from simple enquiries to visits to Canadians in hospital and in prison.

As the civil unrest became widespread in July 2019, and with the assistance of Global Affairs Canada's emergency-planning experts, the Consulate General built on our evergreen emergency-response plans to prepare detailed plans for new contingencies that could arise. We also brought in staff from around the world on temporary assignments to provide surge support during the peak period of the civil unrest.

We regularly advised Canadians in Hong Kong on the possibility of large-scale street clashes, and shared those messages proactively through our registration of Canadians abroad and social media channels. Throughout this 18-month period, and with a renewed push since the advent of the National Security Law, we have engaged with the Canadian business community, both with individual companies and with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, to share perspectives on the evolving situation and to see how our trade commissioner service could be of assistance to them.

I look forward to providing greater detail on these and any other issues of interest to the committee.

I thank you for inviting me.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Thank you very much.

The committee is now suspended subject to the call of the chair. For those attending the in-person meeting, we will reconvene in room 225, West Block.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Good morning, colleagues. We're now reconvening the third meeting of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations.

We've heard statements from Mr. Nankivell. Thank you very much.

Now we'll proceed directly to questions. The first round is six minutes, beginning with Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hong Kong affairs are a concern to Canada. To suggest otherwise ignores the fact that when a state like China enters into international treaties, they give up some of their sovereignty. In 1984 the People's Republic of China and the United Kingdom signed the joint declaration, which came into effect in 1997 for 50 years. The joint declaration is not simply a bilateral treaty. It was also registered at the United Nations and Canada was a witness to that registration. As a result, Canada has an obligation to ensure this international treaty is upheld, which is currently not the case. My questions are made in light of that fact.

Recently, a U.S. citizen sought help at the American consulate in Hong Kong, was forced out and then subsequently arrested by Hong Kong police. In September, Australian journalists Bill Birtles and Mike Smith got out of China after a five-day diplomatic standoff after seeking refuge in their embassy in Beijing.

Mr. Nankivell, what plans does the consulate have if a Canadian citizen involved in Hong Kong activism seeks protection at the consulate? Has anyone tried to claim asylum at the consulate?

[Jeff Nankivell]

We have two different categories of people there: Canadian citizens who could be seeking protection, and people who are not Canadians who could be seeking asylum. We have not had a direct approach from either category. We've had no Canadians show up seeking protection, and we've had nobody arrive at our door asking for asylum.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

If a Canadian did seek asylum in the consulate, do you have plans in place to address that, and what would they be?

[Jeff Nankivell]

For a Canadian coming to the consulate seeking consular assistance from us, our door is always open to a Canadian who shows up. We would welcome a Canadian and then see how we can assist them, what their situation is and what kind of help they need. As for someone who is not a Canadian seeking asylum, asylum concerns non-Canadians or non-citizens of the country of the mission in question, so that's different.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

In 2006, during the unrest in Lebanon, the federal government had to evacuate some 15,000 Canadians, about a third of the Canadians living there, at a cost of $85 million. Some 300,000 Canadian citizens live in Hong Kong.

Has Global Affairs put a plan in place for if the situation in Hong Kong deteriorates and we need to evacuate Canadians? If so, what are those plans?

[Jeff Nankivell]

We do have detailed plans in place, and we have resources available and identified to cover a range of situations up to and including a situation where the urgent departure of a large number of Canadians would be necessary. I'm happy to go into more detail on that if you like. We currently assess, and I think you've heard this from other witnesses at the committee, that the likelihood of that kind of extreme scenario appears right now to be very low.

However, it is our job to plan for the most extreme situations. We do have detailed plans in place, and we have resources currently at our mission in Hong Kong and plans to bring in other resources, depending on the circumstances.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you for that answer.

You mentioned in your opening statement and we know that recently the government changed its travel advice on Hong Kong. They've cancelled the extradition treaty, and they've banned certain exports to Hong Kong. What other changes has the consulate made with respect to its activities in Hong Kong?

For example, are you still engaged in activities that promote Hong Kong, as you did perhaps five years ago, as a place that upholds the rule of law, upholds freedom or democratic systems, or have you changed that approach in light of the fact that the government has made it clear that China is not upholding its commitment to the one country, two systems? In other words, have you significantly changed your position in Hong Kong with respect to what you might have done five or 10 years ago?

[Jeff Nankivell]

There is no question that the way we talk about Hong Kong has changed significantly compared with five years ago.

Within Hong Kong, speeches that I give, people I meet with.... I've done round tables just in the last few weeks with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and with Canadian University Association. I did a webinar with the Hong Kong-Canada Business Association. I spend a lot of time talking about our concerns about the national security law and the threats we see to the integrity of the one country, two systems associated with the national security law, and some other political measures such as disqualification of Legislative Council candidates and so on.

When we talk to audiences in Canada about Hong Kong, it's our responsibility to give an accurate picture for businesses. There are opportunities in Hong Kong, but there are risks that we talk to them about as well.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

You're no longer promoting it as a safe haven to visit or invest in, as you once did.

[Jeff Nankivell]

We are giving what we hope is an accurate representation of Hong Kong. People do come to Hong Kong to do business. There are some aspects of business in Hong Kong that are very strong right now for Canadian companies.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to be tight on time today, because we really are up against a tight deadline.

Ms. Yip, you have six minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Welcome, Consul General Nankivell. Thank you for staying up late to answer our questions.

It's often said that there are 300,000 Canadians living in Hong Kong, but this is really reliant on the registration of Canadians abroad. What are the official numbers, and are these numbers current?

[Jeff Nankivell]

This is an issue that we definitely grapple with, not only in Hong Kong but in other places.

That estimate of 300,000, which is very widely quoted, is based on survey data. It's based on a survey that was done 10 years ago, commissioned by the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada. It was a rigorous telephone survey done by polling professionals. That's the basis of that estimate.

It's not based on the number of Canadians who are registered with us. Only a fraction of Canadians who go abroad register with us online. We don't have a way of tracking Canadian citizens who live in other countries if they don't identify themselves to us. That's why, from time to time, we would make a special effort or take advantage of something like the Asia Pacific Foundation's survey.

What I can say is that, in the time since that survey was done in 2010, we've seen the rate of Canadians renewing their passports in Hong Kong actually grow. In the five-year period from 2012 to 2017, the number of Canadians renewing their passports was about 20% higher than it was in the five years before the survey was done. That would lead us to conclude that the number that was there in 2010—and the survey estimated conservatively about 295,000—is probably about the same or more today.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Since the national security law has been implemented, has there been an increase in visa and immigration inquiries?

[Jeff Nankivell]

We've seen some increase in inquiries, but our colleagues in Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada tell us that the numbers are not huge. We haven't seen a big surge. We saw a couple of small spikes in inquiries about a year ago when the protests were at their peak in the fall of 2019, and again around July 1 with the passage of the national security law.

In terms of the inquiries that we're getting, there is a definite trend but the increases are very modest.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You talked about your concerns about the national security law in your statement, and you said you would be pleased to elaborate. Could you elaborate, please?

[Jeff Nankivell]

First, having heard the testimony of the experts who have already testified, I think there are no issues they've pointed out that we don't agree with in our assessment. Number one, there's the way in which the law came about. We think it was fundamentally improper and it was secretive. The details of the law were only revealed to the public at the very moment it took effect, which is extraordinary in a common law system.

The most troubling aspect of the law is in its article 55, which provides for security agencies of the central government to operate in Hong Kong without supervision from Hong Kong authorities and beyond the reach of Hong Kong courts and law.

It remains to be seen how those powers will be used, but that marks a step change in the one country, two systems. That's why the Government of Canada, with other governments, has publicly called this out as being in contravention of the Sino-British Joint Declaration, Hong Kong's Basic Law and Hong Kong's commitments under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, all of which would preclude that kind of carte blanche for security agencies to operate without supervision by courts and by Hong Kong agencies governing Hong Kong.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you have any concerns about Hong Kong authorities denying the freedom to exit Hong Kong through passport confiscation or other measures? Is the consulate equipped to support Canadians in that kind of situation?

[Jeff Nankivell]

Up to now, we have not seen any case of a Hong Konger, or anyone in Hong Kong, being prevented from exiting, except for people who are already under a legal constraint. There are people who have bail conditions. There were over 10,000 people who were arrested during the protests over the last year, and about 2,300 of them face charges currently. There are a number of people who are under bail conditions, which in some cases would prohibit them from leaving.

We haven't seen arbitrary application of this, and we consult very closely across the other consulates. We haven't seen that up to now.

Our concern with the national security law is that if the authorities are investigating an offence, under that law, they can prevent somebody from leaving just for being under investigation. That's only supposed to cover four offences, but it's very troubling.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Garnett Genuis]

Thank you very much.

The bells haven't starting ringing yet, but before we proceed to Mr. Bergeron, I want to seek the unanimous consent of the committee to proceed for 20 minutes into the period of the bells ringing. That will allow us to complete the first round and hopefully have another brief intervention from each party after that.

Is there anyone who objects to proceeding in that fashion?

Seeing no objection, we will move on to Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Nankivell, for being with us at such a late hour. We are very grateful to you, especially since we had a number of technical problems, which you had to experience with us despite the late hour.

I offer you my compliments for the quality of your French and for the attention you have paid to the work of this committee since the beginning. Since you have been attentive to the work of this committee, you are certainly aware that we have decided to proceed with an interim report, particularly in response to this urgent request we received to possibly welcome dissidents from Hong Kong who would need a refuge, given the application of the National Security Law.

The ambassador of the People's Republic of China, in a statement he made on October 15, warned Canada about the possible hosting of dissidents on its territory. We sense that the government of the People's Republic of China is putting pressure on all western democracies to refrain from hosting dissidents on their territory. The Federal Republic of Germany welcomed one dissident, which led to its representatives being admonished by the Hong Kong authorities that this was not the way to go.

In the circumstances, I cannot make assumptions as to the conclusions of this committee, but since it is likely that this committee will recommend to the Canadian government that dissidents from Hong Kong be welcomed and that mechanisms be put in place to allow them to find refuge in Canada, is there any preparation on your part for this eventuality, despite the pressure from the Hong Kong authorities and the People's Republic of China?