Canada-China Relations Committee on June 21st, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30 of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

This is a hybrid meeting, pursuant to the motion passed by the House on January 25, 2021.

I would now like to welcome a fellow Maritimer, the Honourable Dominic Cardy, Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development at the Legislative Assembly of the Government of New Brunswick.

Thank you very much for being with us tonight.

Please proceed with your opening remarks. You have five minutes.

[Dominic Cardy, Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, it's an honour to be able to be part of this conversation around an issue that I think is of great importance to our country, at a time of increasing global instability.

Very briefly, my particular interest in this subject doesn't just stem from my current position as Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development in New Brunswick but from having worked as a democracy activist in multiple countries around the world—coincidentally, Cambodia and Nepal. I happened to be living in those countries when China took an interest in those countries and effectively, economically—and in both cases functionally and politically—colonized them over a very brief period of time in the last decade—the decade before last.

When we look at any discussion around China, I think it's important that we look at the reality of the horrifying headlines we've seen here in our own country around residential schools in recent weeks. As we like to say about past sins that our country has experienced, “never forget and never again”. In this case, we appear to be doing just that in both cases with China, and not only that but amplifying it as a massive system of residential schools and internment camps—functionally, concentration camps—is rolled out across the hinterland of one of our largest trading partners.

Rather than speaking up against this vociferously and making that the centrepiece of our foreign policy, as you'd expect of a country that led the fight against fascism and for democracy in the Second World War and that has been a voice with its soft power in the intervening decades, instead we are amplifying that message. I'm speaking here specifically not just about our general foreign policy failures but about the experience of the Confucius Institute, a Chinese Communist Party branch operation that's operating inside public schools and universities in different places across Canada.

Here in New Brunswick, the Confucius Institute gained a foothold back in the late 2000s and expanded to reach many thousands of New Brunswick students at both the primary and high school levels over the course of several years. Programs supposedly focusing on culture and language in many cases included overt political propaganda. This included having elementary school students drawing maps of China that would erase the border with Taiwan. This included the denial of the reality of Tiananmen Square, and it included the disciplining of students who raised questions around China's abysmal human rights records. These are things that are happening in Canadian schools.

Knowing this, and with the background that I had, when I became minister at the end of 2018, I resolved to try to end the Confucius Institute's programs in New Brunswick, which resulted in an interesting series of lobbying efforts. The first one was with the former premier of New Brunswick, Shawn Graham, working as a lobbyist for Chinese interests, attempting to get me to maintain my relationships with the Confucius Institutes operating here in the province and New Brunswick curriculum-operated schools operating in China.

Then, when that didn't work, somewhat surprisingly there was the visit of the consul general of China to my office without any of the normal diplomatic protocols that I'm well aware of from my past life in international politics and diplomacy. He attempted to pressure me into reversing a government decision, including threats of economic retaliation, turning this into a two-nation issue rather than a question of a disagreement over schooling. That, in turn, led to members of the Chinese diaspora reaching out to me, expressing grave concern over the fact that their country of birth was reaching its tentacles into not just Canadian politics but our education system, which you would hope would be the place where what we would have as Canadian values....

No matter how much we may argue around parliamentary and legislative tables across the country about what that would mean, it certainly does not include concentration camps, mass murder and any of the myriad crimes routinely committed by the People's Republic of China and its various apologists supporting it around the world.

I'm looking forward to answering any questions that I can, specifically about the Confucius Institute's operations here in New Brunswick, the reaction to the decision to cancel the programs and anything else related to this subject.

Thank you so much for the time to be able to appear before this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I gather we may be interrupted once or twice—probably twice tonight—throughout the whole meeting for votes. I'm sure the clerk will advise me if the bells begin to ring because I'm not sure that I'll know. Then I'll seek unanimous consent to continue for a reasonable time to get us close to the time of the vote so that we can hear more.

We'll go now to the first round of questions.

Mr. Williamson, you have six minutes, please.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Cardy, it's very good to see you here tonight.

I have many questions, so I'm going to get started right away.

As you know, I'm a member of Parliament from New Brunswick. I followed the headlines as they were happening in our province, as you and your government were moving to put some distance between the Confucius Institute and the education system.

Can you tell me, first off, what did you make of the lobbying effort, particularly from former premier Shawn Graham? Do you find that unusual? Are you concerned that this employment of former politicians is pervasive across the country and could spread?

[Dominic Cardy]

Thank you very much for the question.

Certainly based on my reading on the Confucius Institute and my study of Chinese foreign policy operations, this has become reasonably standard. There is an effort first off to start with the soft-sell approach, ironically I think playing on Canada's growing awareness around issues of race and racism, and saying, “How could you possibility question the motives of us, a poor developing country trying to make our way in the world? All we're seeking to do is share love, harmony and understanding through dance, through language and through music.”

Underneath that, there's a harsher reality. We've seen that harsher reality, of course, in the way that China has actually behaved.

Specifically on your question, I didn't find it surprising. I did find it disappointing that a former premier would choose to present the views of a clearly hostile foreign power that has actively engaged in suppressing its own citizens, and also arbitrarily detaining Canadians, of course, as we are well aware.

I find it depressing, but perhaps not surprising. Hopefully, things can change. I'm always an optimist.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Yes.

Unfortunately, recently we had former premier Stephen McNeil in Nova Scotia, lecturing Canadians about turning the other cheek when it comes to standing up for our values.

Could you talk to us a little bit about the conversation you had with the consul general in your office? I think it's important to underscore just how bizarre and unusual.... For China, which is normally very attuned to diplomatic niceties and protocols, to show up at your office unannounced is highly unusual.

Could you talk to us a little bit about that meeting, that conversation, and whether there was any follow-up subsequently to that in any other kind of venue with Chinese embassy officials?

[Dominic Cardy]

Absolutely. The consul general from Montreal arrived—I gather also had meetings with other ministers—and made it quite clear that there could be economic consequences for any erosion of ties between the Government of New Brunswick and China, including threats around lobster sales and a number of other specifics.

In my conversation with him, he clearly hadn't done much background reading on where I come from. I have a range of publications that were recently made accessible online around China democracy issues, ranging back about 15 years.

His first goal was to make it again sound as though this was simply a misunderstanding. He repeatedly said, “Look, the way you should allay any concerns you have is to come and visit China. You can come. We'll be happy. We're going to show you around. We'll show you a great time. You'll see that China is in fact a democratic country.” I expressed some surprise on hearing that, but it basically continued along those lines.

There was a significant push-back when I made the point that you made in your line of questioning—that this is a country that is routinely willing, in the first instance of receiving any criticism, to say that this is an interference in its internal affairs, its domestic affairs, and it violates the rights of national self-determination and the autonomy of the state. When I questioned how this didn't apply, he said that this was about schools. I said, “Well, that's odd. If this is about schools, then you're talking about lobsters as well. There seems to be a bit of a mixed message here.”

Again, that didn't particularly surprise me. If you read the reports from our own intelligence services, from the Australian government, from other democratic governments around the world, including some emergent democracies that are far further down the GDP list than we are but are increasingly awake and aware to what China is up to, this is part of the pattern.

You start off with the soft sell. You start off with the all-expense paid trips. I don't think it's any coincidence that we see a large number of western politicians suddenly parroting Beijing's line on a multitude of different issues, because most of those folks have taken advantage of Chinese hospitality.

The next stage up from that is the veiled threat: If you do this, then even though this is purely about education, inexplicably lobsters become part of New Brunswick's education system. Even though this has nothing to do with the Communist Party or the government—this is all about a very informal education exchange—again, Beijing could be willing to make decisions around its economic relationship with Canada based on what happens here in New Brunswick.

The efforts to threaten and cajole, I don't think would have been acceptable from anyone else. I can only imagine the horror with which most folks in Canada, me included, would react if we ever had representatives of the American government behaving in a similar way.

I'm not surprised. This is part of a traditional pattern. Again, my hope is that through conversations like this, we can move to recognize the threat that China poses and move quickly to try to distance ourselves from a country that does not share our values.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I have one last quick question. I only have a few seconds left and you only have a few seconds.

What access did the Confucius Institute have to the data on students' private information, curriculum and things like that?

[Dominic Cardy]

We had members of the Chinese Communist Party who were working for the Confucius Institute who have access to the databases and student information of New Brunswick students. I heard about that from members of the Chinese diaspora, who are extremely concerned about that fact.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Williamson.

We'll now go on to Ms. Yip, for six minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming to the committee to answer our questions. I read with great interest your biography. You have an interesting history.

Despite your advocacy, the Confucius Institutes are still permitted in New Brunswick until next year. If this is so concerning, why not close them down now and not next year?

[Dominic Cardy]

Because, as I think all of the members of this committee are well aware, cabinet ministers don't make decisions unilaterally, nor do any individual members of a party or government.

I was very pleased that we were able to move immediately to end all of the Confucius Institute programming available to the younger years and, pending the end of the contract next June, to restrict the programming to a couple of courses based purely around language at the high school level. I can assure you that I've been monitoring closely to make sure that none of the efforts to censor or intimidate Canadian students is repeated, including, particularly, students of Chinese extraction.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How are you able to monitor their progress?

[Dominic Cardy]

As you would expect, with a foreign government managing programs inside a Canadian school, I certainly don't feel any compunction in making sure that I check in regularly to find out what's happening in those classrooms. I think any responsible minister would do that. If there were concerns raised about any sort of class, whether it was a curriculum area that was receiving a particular controversy or...you would make it your duty to make sure you were up to speed on that issue.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What has the Chinese community in New Brunswick, as parents, talked to you about regarding the Confucius Institute? You mentioned that in your opening statement. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

[Dominic Cardy]

I can, and this is somewhat sad. Many of them felt the need to communicate, and in one case reached out to me to have a meeting off-site in an open area, because they were afraid of being surveilled. Others made it clear that they were using emails that they had registered specifically for the purpose of communicating with me. A few did write to me directly.

They expressed real concerns about the potential impact on family back in China if they spoke out openly about the issues that they felt were definitely present with the Confucius Institute's programming. They definitely felt censored, as you would expect from any citizen of a country that, again, routinely tortures and murders large numbers of its own citizens and has shown no compunction about extending that ill treatment towards citizens of other countries.

Given Canada's not particularly strong record in standing up to that poor treatment, I can certainly understand the concern they have. All I could do was to promise them that I would protect their confidentiality and do my very best to be a voice for the hundreds of millions of people in China who are desperate for change and desperate for the sorts of freedoms that we enjoy every day.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What exactly were their concerns as parents? What did they raise with you that made them so afraid?

[Dominic Cardy]

It was on a number of different bases. The first was educationally that their students were being given misinformation. Subjects were being censored, information was being presented as fact that was not fact, and most of this material was not in the material that was supposed to be covered by the courses that the Confucius Institute and the New Brunswick government had agreed on.

Beyond that, the concerns they had either as New Brunswick permanent residents, or in some cases Canadian citizens, was that they felt that, if they spoke out in any way that could be linked back to them or their name, there would be repercussions for their families back in China. This is a concern that's been expressed, again, in a number of different government reports here and abroad about the increased influence of Beijing over members of the Chinese diaspora and efforts to try to mobilize and weaponize them—often against their will—to be agents of influence and to do so in a way that, again, does not necessarily in any way reflect what they want to see, what they would like to do, their beliefs or their politics.

When you have a government that behaves as Beijing does and enjoys the levels of impunity that the country continues to enjoy, then it's not surprising that they continue to abuse their position in this and a multitude of other areas.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you share with this committee what type of analysis was done in the decision to shut down the institute in New Brunswick?

[Dominic Cardy]

The analysis from my perspective was quite simple, which is that I do not, did not and would not tolerate supporting a program run and managed by a foreign political party operating in our public school system. That struck me as inappropriate, regardless of any of the other concerns that we've been discussing here this evening.

That was certainly my perspective when I took the job as minister. I was elected in September 2018. I started conversations around this file nearly immediately. That was very much one of my positions going into the job, and I moved quickly to accelerate the process of eliminating the Confucius Institute from New Brunswick public schools.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Wasn't a study done to track the different reasons why it should be shut down?

[Dominic Cardy]

Absolutely. I did that research based on studies around the world on the Confucius Institute. I'm sure you and your committee have access to that information. If not, I'd be very happy to provide a long list of links on that subject. The number of those reports has grown exponentially since I began this conversation in 2018.

There is a huge body of evidence talking about why the Confucius Institutes are a danger to the countries in which they're located, and I used that as the basis for this decision.

There absolutely was an extensive study. It was done largely as part of my time as minister. The evidence I received afterwards, from the way this program was operationalized in New Brunswick schools, only confirmed my decision.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Maybe you could share with us—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Ms. Yip.

Are you looking for a written...?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

No, I'm just enjoying our conversation too much.