Evidence of meeting #30 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brunswick.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
I'm afraid your time is up, but thank you very much.
Mr. Bergeron, go ahead for six minutes.
6:50 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, good afternoon and thank you for joining us today.
I'm happy to be hearing from you. I see behind you the Acadian flag, and I'm very glad. You see behind me a blue, white and red flag. Make no mistake, that is not the French flag, but in fact the Acadian flag, as that is where I hail from. My ancestors come from the village of Sainte-Anne, on the Saint John River. The British actually built Fredericton on its ruins.
In the beginning, I was pleasantly surprised to see that the education minister of one of Canada's provinces wanted to meet with us concerning security issues involved in Canada-China relations. It was even more interesting that, in testimony delivered on April 19 of this year, Michel Juneau-Katsuya, former member of CSIS and expert on intelligence and national security, told us that a former director of the Confucius Institute in New Brunswick was forced to leave Canada following activities much more akin to espionage. He added that he investigated a case where a former director had asked an employee of the provincial government to obtain an official email in order to have access to the provincial government's information.
Did you have access to that information before you decided to partially sever ties, for the time being, and eventually completely sever ties between the Government of New Brunswick and its school system and the Confucius Institute?
6:50 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Thank you for the question, Mr. Bergeron.
I also thank you for the Acadian solidarity. From my office, I can see Pointe Sainte-Anne, which is where the old Acadian village was built.
6:50 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
That is the old cemetery where my ancestors are probably buried.
6:50 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Okay. I will say hello to them when I get back home this evening.
6:50 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
No, I did not have that information when I made the decision, as that decision was based on concerns that predated my election in New Brunswick, as I mentioned.
I was sure I was making the right decision because I had examined, starting in the 2000s, the situation around the world, especially because I was living and working in countries close to China—in Cambodia and in Nepal—where China's influence manifested quickly, completely changing those countries' political culture in a few months, and that is not an exaggeration. It was clear that the Beijing government was using a lot of similar tools to try to influence us. We cannot have that pretension here. They see Canada as a small country, rich in resources, but with a small population and lacking a strong foreign policy, to put it politely.
It was in that context that I told myself I could not do much as a provincial politician. It bothered me to see an operation controlled by the Communist Party of China in New Brunswick's schools that was engaging in propaganda in the classroom. I did everything I could to eliminate those classes as quickly as possible. Given the opportunity, I would have obviously liked to bid them farewell last year and even before that. We now must wait until June of next year. I very much look forward to June 2022.
6:50 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I do understand what you are saying, and I must say I found it rather unusual that Mr. Juneau‑Katsuya specifically focused on New Brunswick in his testimony. I was wondering whether there is a connection between the fact that he focused on New Brunswick and the fact that a minister from that same province had undertaken measures against Confucius Institutes and wanted to meet with this committee's members on security consideration in the Canada-China relations. In his testimony, Mr. Juneau‑Katsuya actually referred to Confucius Institutes as spy satellites for Chinese authorities. According to what you just told us, the institute is a propaganda vehicle, so to speak, in New Brunswick schools.
Would you also say that these are spy satellites for the Chinese regime within the province of New Brunswick?
6:55 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
I don't want to contradict the gentleman who said that. Clearly, we are seeing other countries where one of the objectives of Confucius Institutes is to monitor the Chinese community and, more specifically, to protect Beijing interests.
6:55 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
I want to come back to the statement made by former premier Shawn Graham, that the relationship with Confucius Institutes would not be terminated just to prevent political talk.
Are you under the impression that politics were indeed discussed in the Confucius Institute's courses?
6:55 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Discussions on politics are rather forbidden there, despite the fact that the New Brunswick curriculum is based on the principles of multiculturalism, liberalism with a lower case l, absolutely—
6:55 p.m.
Liberal
6:55 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Like Ms. Yip, I really feel like I've not had all of my speaking time. However, I know that you are an extremely rigorous time keeper, Mr. Chair, so I gladly submit.
6:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron. I am happy about that.
Now we have Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.
June 21st, 2021 / 6:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Minister Cardy, for joining us tonight.
You said that you started being concerned about this in 2018 when you became Minister of Education in New Brunswick. Was this a concern of yours for some time before that? Was action taken by you to either condemn the Confucius Institute or make an issue of it?
6:55 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
No. I was only elected in 2018. I had previously, in my time in opposition, raised the issue on several occasions. I had become concerned about Chinese efforts to basically reverse engineer a tool that Canada used to great effect for a number of decades, which is using soft power against liberal democracies.
It had become something I was experiencing a growing worry about, especially based on my time living in China's near abroad, both in Cambodia and in Nepal. There, Chinese influence went from significant but not determining, to being dominant, to put it politely, in the space of less than a year on both occasions. That is well documented, as any reading of the Nepali or Cambodian press would show.
6:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
I'm interested in New Brunswick, of course, because we're talking about something that has been going on.... For how long has the Confucius Institute been active in New Brunswick?
6:55 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
It's been since 2007.
6:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
In how many schools do they play a role in your public school system?
6:55 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
In 2016, they were operating in 28 schools. We have several hundred schools in the province. That number is down to two or three at the high school level, with language-only classes.
6:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Would they have also been operating in universities in New Brunswick?
6:55 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
I don't believe so. That is a separate department here, so I can't answer that question with certainty. In conversations with the Minister of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour, he was not aware of any operations of the Confucius Institute. They didn't have a formal relationship.
It's worth noting that—if you read the reports from multiple intelligence agencies across democracies—if you have a Confucius Institute presence, it often extends itself to a variety of areas that aren't necessarily part of people's day jobs. In this case, in a town with several universities, I'm sure that was something where the Confucius Institute had an interest as well, but you would have ask them about that.
6:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Are you telling us, then, that you based your decision to try to do away with the Confucius Institute not on what you knew about them operating in New Brunswick and what they did there, but on your knowledge of how they operated elsewhere? Is that right?
6:55 p.m.
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, As an Individual
That would not be correct. I had previously, as I mentioned, in opposition, raised the issue. Again, I have written on the subject, not widely but a couple of articles that I received correspondence on, over the years, of Chinese influence and—
6:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Okay, so you would have had people complaining to you about things that had happened.