Canada-China Relations Committee on June 21st, 2021

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It's nice to see you. I believe it was here in Nova Scotia, when we were both members of the New Democratic Party. I was a backbencher in the Darrell Dexter government that was actually making trips to China and increasing trade with China.

Did you advise Mr. Darrell Dexter, who was the premier then, that it was not a good idea to do?

[Dominic Cardy]

No, I don't recall having conversations at that point with Mr. Dexter. I think anyone who is in regular contact with me certainly knows my feelings on China and the need for Canada to disentangle ourselves from that government as quickly as possible. I don't recall any specific conversations with Mr. Dexter on that subject.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You were, of course, the leader of the NDP in New Brunswick at that time. Our lobster sales in Nova Scotia have also increased with China. In fact, I believe they are one of our largest buyers.

Apparently, Premier Higgs was also concerned about jeopardizing New Brunswick exports to China, because he said recently that the province would respect its contract with the Confucius Institute and keep the Beijing-funded program through to 2022. Have you had a chance to talk to him about that?

[Dominic Cardy]

Yes, I believe I covered that in some of my earlier comments. The previous government, under Premier Gallant, signed a contract that removed the right of New Brunswick to cancel the contract. Again, that's something I have never seen in any contract, no matter how inept the lawyers involved happened to be. That seriously restricted our ability to finish the contract 100%.

We cancelled all of the programs in nearly every single school and restricted it to a couple of high school-based, language-only programs, with careful attention to make sure that we no longer had students being disciplined for raising the Tiananmen Square massacre, other human rights abuses and so on.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Of course, education is a provincial issue.

Are you suggesting that all provinces should follow your lead and cancel Chinese language training?

[Dominic Cardy]

No, I think we should encourage Chinese language training. We just shouldn't use the Communist Party of China to be the language teachers.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

In Australia, where I come from, Chinese language is very important. They are very much encouraging students to learn Chinese because, of course, China is such a big player on the world stage.

What do you suggest going forward?

I noticed that you said that we need to play hardball, but a number of the people who have testified on this committee have said that hardball doesn't necessarily work and that you have to walk a fine line with China. What would you say to that?

[Dominic Cardy]

Look at the 1930s.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Could you explain that?

[Dominic Cardy]

We have an aggressive regime that has no respect for any of the values we hold dear, that suppresses democracy and that is currently incarcerating several million Muslims in concentration camps, forcibly sterilizing them, and women are being forced to take People's Liberation Army soldiers and members of the Chinese police force into their homes. This isn't me saying this; these are all backed up by multiple reports internationally. They are committing genocide, according to numerous international actors.

If we're going to say that Canada has any moral authority in the world, at what point do we use it if not against a country that behaves in that way?

I'm all in favour of engaging with countries—

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I'm sorry. I just need to ask you one more question.

[Dominic Cardy]

—that may be difficult, but I am not in favour of working with countries as—

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Can I ask you another question?

Are you considering a federal run?

[Dominic Cardy]

No, I'm not. I'm very happy where I am.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Okay, thank you very much.

What about the National Democratic Institute, the U.S.-based democracy promotion agency? Can you tell us a little bit about that, please?

[Dominic Cardy]

I'm not sure what relevance it has to the hearing, but I'm more than happy to.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Well, you worked there in the 2000s.

[Dominic Cardy]

The National Democratic Institute was founded in the early 1980s in Washington, D.C., as part of four different non-governmental agencies, one linked to the U.S. Democratic Party, one to the U.S. Republican Party, one to the U.S. body representing organized labour and one to a body broadly representing U.S. business interests.

NDI would work in countries around the world, usually countries coming out of civil conflict, to build new democracies. My specialty in those areas was that I would work on election-related programs for campaigns and training of scrutineers, which the Americans call polling agents, working with parties on internal party elections.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Did you work in Latin American countries as well?

[Dominic Cardy]

No, I don't speak Spanish. I worked in Asia and Africa.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Zann.

We now continue with Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you once again.

I wanted to let you know that an article published in La Presse in May 2013 said that, in a secret report from 2006 on Confucius Institutes, Canadian intelligence agencies wrote that China wants the world to fall in love with it and with all things Chinese. According to CSIS, that soft power goes hand in hand with the Middle Kingdom's campaign to increase its military and economic powers.

Is that information you already had when you decided to gradually sever ties with the Confucius Institute, or are you hearing it again in your discussion with us today?

[Dominic Cardy]

I did not have direct knowledge of that information, but it is found in many public reports of agencies from democratic countries around the world. So it is not a surprise, as it reflects the reality of the time.

A number of changes have been implemented by President Xi's new regime. Since the end of the Mao era, Beijing has gradually been eliminating the transparency of authority. A dictator of a country with one political party eliminating measures that prevent his full control of power is a reason for concern.

I think that China's actions over these past few years, since President Xi came to power, are good reasons for concern. All you have to do is look at China's foreign policy in the South China Sea or with its neighbours, the way it treats its own minorities, the imprisonment of Canadian citizens without a valid legal reason and strictly for political reasons, as well as the impossibility of discussing those violations among parliamentarians here in Canada

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Has New Brunswick had to face economic retaliation following your decision?

Do you anticipate such retaliation in terms of the fallout from the cuts concerning Confucius Institutes?