Canada-China Relations Committee on June 21st, 2021

[Dominic Cardy]

I had people complaining. I had both Chinese and non-Chinese Canadians complaining to me about the Confucius Institute's operations.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I take it, then, there was a formal relationship, some agreement with the Department of Education that you were working on.

[Dominic Cardy]

Yes. It was renewed in 2012 and 2017, prior to the election of the government of which I'm part. Somewhat bizarrely, the most recent renewal removed the ability for New Brunswick to withdraw from the contract. That clause was removed at China's request, and that request was acquiesced to by the Brian Gallant government.

This is part of what led our having to run out the rest of this contract in a much more limited way in the high schools, with the language courses, because of the language used in that contract, which was also unprecedented in any of the international documents I have ever seen signed by any government, including ones with much lower capacity than you would expect the Government of New Brunswick to have.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Do you have any idea how this would have started? Was there some sort of economic deal between the New Brunswick government and the Confucius Institute, or China-Beijing, to sponsor these institutes? How did it come about?

[Dominic Cardy]

There are a couple of folks who had built connections between New Brunswick and China over the last number of decades and had opened up schools in China, using New Brunswick curriculum, for example. I highlight Dr. Francis Pang, who has been prominent in that. He introduced the opportunity for New Brunswick to host the Confucius Institute back in 2007, and following that there was an agreement signed in 2008, I believe it was. The schools continued again uninterrupted until 2018, and then they were curtailed, as I mentioned.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Am I right or wrong in assuming that it may have been thought to be benign when that was started?

[Dominic Cardy]

I think so. Having talked to some of the people who were part of that original discussion, I think that was the point of high optimism around China, and the idea that the liberalization of trade would result in the liberalization of politics. I can understand that, and I think that a lot of well-meaning Canadians in politics felt that was an appropriate path up until quite recently.

Clearly, that's absolutely no longer the case, and I'd argue probably we've been somewhat slower than we should have been in catching on to a serious change in Beijing's intentions toward democracies over the last 15 years.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Aside from the development of this idea of exchanges, was there a lot of interest in New Brunswick in China, or learning the Chinese languages and that sort of thing? Was that something that prompted it, or was that something that just developed as a matter of government policy?

[Dominic Cardy]

I certainly have never heard of anyone having expressed strong desires for Chinese language programming, as much as I think that's an excellent idea. One of my goals is to work with the Government of the Republic of China, Taiwan, to try to replace any programming that's lost because of the ending of our relationship with the Confucius Institutes, with a country that will respect our democratic values. We're already in those discussions, and I hope those will come to fruition very shortly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We are now beginning the second round.

Mr. Paul‑Hus, go ahead for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon Mr. Cardy. Thank you for joining us today.

I want to begin by saying that you are very brave for daring to implement such reforms. I hope that people around Canada are opening their eyes to what is currently happening at Confucius Institutes.

Here is my first question. On March 5 of this year, the U.S. Senate voted against the department of education funding universities affiliated with Confucius Institutes.

Do you think the federal government should consider that kind of an approach?

[Dominic Cardy]

We must take all possible measures to reduce Beijing's influence in all our institutions, our politics and our economy.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's quite clear, thank you.

Did you receive the federal government's assistance when you decided to move forward? I am talking about intelligence services—either CSIS or the RCMP. I assume China pressured you indirectly. You actually mentioned threats to stop buying lobster, for instance.

Did you get any help from federal agencies in gathering the evidence you needed to influence the New Brunswick ministerial office?

[Dominic Cardy]

Concerns were occasionally expressed by federal elected members. However, those concerns were not addressed to me, so I cannot comment specifically on that aspect.

As for other agencies, I had discussions with CSIS, just to exchange information. With my years of work abroad in diplomatic affairs, I found it somewhat strange to see a diplomat pressure a member of provincial cabinet with no support from a professional team or a federal representative. Based on my experience, that was exceptional.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I understand.

Did you discuss this with your counterparts from other provinces, such as the Quebec minister of education? Did any of your colleagues ask questions?

[Dominic Cardy]

Yes. I spoke with the Council of Ministers of Education of Canada, which brings together all the provinces and territories. This year, the council adopted a proposal submitted by New Brunswick to limit all school contact with China owing to the treatment of Hong Kong pro-democracy activists, Uighurs, religious minorities and a thousand and one other reasons that justify a distancing from China. I received the council's support in that effort.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's excellent. I yield the floor to my colleague Mr. Williamson.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Cardy, you referenced “soft power”, but that's a bit of an understatement. When this debate was happening, I was hearing from constituents in New Brunswick Southwest, from lobster sellers in particular, who were quite concerned about losing market access.

Could you talk about the drama that was taking place, the threat that China was making and how this is a soft power with an iron fist behind the glove?

[Dominic Cardy]

Absolutely. Again, I think that is very much in keeping with China's ability to play off some of Canada's political class's best instincts—a tendency to want to listen and to accommodate and to be reasonable. In this case, on the one hand, you had friendly discussions: Think of the children. Why don't you come and visit China? As the consul general said, you can see that China is also a democratic country and that people who visit China come away transformed—which I'm sure they do.

On the other hand, other people in the same city are passing on a very clear message of economic bribery, making it very clear that what is being said in one room, that this is an education issue and it has nothing to do with the economy, isn't what is being seen in another room: You'd better get him under control; otherwise, it will cost you tens of millions of dollars in lobster sales.

I think that speaks for itself.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Could you talk too about the fallout? We've seen in Australia that despite the embargo, they have found new markets. Has there been an economic fallout in New Brunswick?

[Dominic Cardy]

Lobster prices are, I believe, close to record highs at the moment. Come down to New Brunswick, enjoy our lobster rolls and help protect democracy at the same time.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I think I'm out of time. Thank you very much, Mr. Cardy.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Williamson.

Ms. Zann, you have five minutes, please.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

Hello, Mr. Cardy. It's been a while since we met.

[Dominic Cardy]

It's nice to see you.