Evidence of meeting #12 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
David Vigneault  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Brigitte Gauvin  Acting Director General, Federal Policing, National Security, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Adam Fisher  Director General, Intelligence Assessments, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Superintendent Matt Peggs  Criminal Operations Officer, O Division (Ontario), Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère  Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Lesley Soper  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Good evening, everyone. We'll call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the Canada-People's Republic of China Relationship. Pursuant to the order of reference of May 16, 2022, the committee is meeting on its study of the Canada-People's Republic of China relations, with a focus on police service stations.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

For the benefit of witnesses and members, please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will remind you that that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Let's see. I believe, Madam Clerk, that we have tested all of the connections. Yes, everybody has been tested. You're all healthy. That's good.

I'd now like to welcome the Honourable Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety. He's accompanied today by Tricia Geddes, associate deputy minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness; Brenda Lucki, commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and David Vigneault, director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS.

Minister Mendicino, you have up to five minutes for your opening statement.

6:30 p.m.

Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Liberal

Marco Mendicino LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Mr Chair, thank you for the opportunity to present to you and committee members today.

I would like to begin by commending the committee for studying the so-called police stations, which are a suspected vector of foreign activities steered by the People's Republic of China and operate in Canada as well as other democracies around the world.

The reports of the PRC attempting to enhance its clandestine footprint on Canadian soil reflect two incontrovertible trends. First is that the geopolitical landscape is increasingly complex, with hostile actors looking to disrupt the international rules-based order that has been in place since the end of the Second World War; and, second, like other democracies, Canada has increasingly become a target of foreign interference, which is a direct by-product of the agenda driven by hostile actors whose objective is to undermine our national interests.

Today, I will outline the concrete steps the federal government is taking to mitigate the threat of foreign interference. Before I do so, let me emphasize that Canada has a strong and resilient democracy that is bolstered by a community of national security and public safety agencies that work around the clock to protect our institutions. These agencies have important resources, technologies and tools at their disposal to ensure national security.

The federal government does not undertake this work alone. Rather, we work collaboratively with other levels of government, as well as key allies in the Five Eyes, G7 and NATO. Together, the whole of government is positioned to assess, mitigate, investigate, prosecute and report on threats to Canadian national security.

We need to be always vigilant, because those threats are constantly evolving and manifesting in different ways, including through state and non-state hostile activities, foreign interference, cyber-attacks and threats to the security of our democratic, economic, academic, environmental and public health institutions.

In the face of these threats, the federal government is vigilant, and we are acting. I'd like to highlight five priority areas of our work.

First, we have put into place robust measures to protect our democratic institutions, including our elections.

We introduced Bill C-76 to crack down on foreign funding from third parties to federal campaigns and candidates. We created the security and intelligence threats to elections task force, or SITE. We created the critical incident reporting protocol to communicate transparently and impartially with Canadians during elections in the event that there is a threat to the integrity of a federal election. We also introduced the digital citizen initiative to promote democracy and social inclusion by building resilience against online disinformation and building partnerships to support a healthy information ecosystem.

The SITE task force looked at the federal elections of 2019 and 2021 and independently concluded that in both cases the integrity of the election was not compromised.

Second, we implemented a national cybersecurity strategy and action plan, which resulted in the launch of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security.

In budget 2022, we allocated more than $850 million to enhance the Communications Security Establishment's ability to conduct cyber operations and better protect the privacy of Canadians.

Moreover, last spring, I introduced Bill C‑26, our new legislation on cybersecurity, which prioritizes critical infrastructure protection as it relates to the financial, telecommunications, transportation and innovation sectors.

Third, we have introduced national security guidelines for research partnerships that are backed by a research security centre and a $12.6-million investment, in order to protect the integrity of our academic institutions. The purpose of these guidelines is to integrate national security considerations into the overall assessment of research partnerships. Among other things, the guidelines require clear information about who researchers intend to partner with, what researchers intend to research and what additional due diligence will be taken to mitigate if the subject of research involves a sensitive area. In addition to the guidelines, research partnerships are subject to rigorous admissibility screening and required to comply with existing authorities that regulate exports and imports.

Fourth, when it comes to protecting our economy, the government vets foreign investments under the Investment Canada Act and has the capacity to reject those deals when they are contrary to our national security. The government, as you know, is proposing to further augment the authorities under the ICA.

We also have a new national critical minerals strategy in place. It will help leverage Canada's national resources in a sustainable way, in partnership with indigenous peoples.

Fifth, and finally, we've also modernized our foreign policy with the Indo-Pacific strategy. This strategy calls for the strengthening of our intelligence capabilities in the region, in order to enhance our cyber-diplomacy and deepen our partnership with allies. It is supported by an investment of over $100 million for these particular areas. Within the Indo-Pacific strategy, vis-à-vis our relationship with China, Canada states its commitment to challenge, compete, co-operate and coexist. Put simply, we will never apologize for defending our national interest.

Taken together, these give the committee an overview of the government's approach to managing threats, including foreign interference.

In closing, I would like to say a few words about the activities of foreign governments in Canada. Under international law, all foreign government representatives have a duty to respect our laws and regulations. Any foreign state that threatens, harasses or intimidates Canadians and Canadian residents is in violation of these international agreements.

I assure you that the RCMP is working with the intelligence community and our law enforcement partners to address these so‑called police stations that appear to be operating in the greater Toronto area. Its goal is to ensure that the public feels safe in its own communities. It's about building trust and, where possible, enforcing the law or disrupting activities.

The only way to build trust, Mr. Chair, is by being transparent. That is why we have grown the arsenal of national security tools. However, we have simultaneously raised the bar of transparency through the creation of NSIRA, NSICOP and more frequent public reporting by our intelligence agencies. In a similar vein, we have expressed that we will explore ways to further enhance transparency with regard to our fight against foreign interference. All options are on the table. These could include requiring foreign agents to be properly registered.

However, we must bring all Canadians into this discussion as we reform our institutions so they are more diverse, inclusive and free from systemic discrimination, biases and racism.

The objective of these and other ongoing efforts is to recognize that the threat of foreign interference is not static and that we must continue to develop the tools available to Canada to deal with this evolving threat.

Colleagues, as I close, I will underline that our national security and intelligence agencies continue to investigate and monitor reports of Chinese overseas police stations in Canada. There will be no tolerance for this or any other form of intimidation, harassment or harmful targeting of Canadians or individuals within Canada.

Canada will continue to stand for its interests and values, both at home and abroad.

Thank you.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Thank you, Minister Mendicino.

I would like to welcome some new people joining us. I see Mr. Chiang on the Liberal side, and on the Conservative side, I see Mr. Allison and Mr. Lake.

It's good to see you.

Mr. Lake, we'll try to get the proper name because I don't know if you want to be referred to as Mr. Genuis.

We will get on with the questioning tonight. We will start our first round of six minutes each with Ms. Dancho.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Thank you, Minister, for coming to speak about this important issue.

I think Canadians were rightfully concerned when they first heard reports that there were three alleged Chinese police stations operating illegally and certainly in violation of Canadian sovereignty in Toronto. Could you provide for the committee any information about how many of these so-called police stations have been and are operating currently in Canada?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you for the question, Ms. Dancho, and thank you for your attention to this matter.

As I said, I embrace the committee's study of it. I would begin by pointing out that we are deeply concerned with regard to any allegations and reports of foreign interference. As you have seen, there have been public reports of these so-called police stations. I would point out to you that, with regard to the details of the investigation, this is the subject of ongoing initiatives by the RCMP, and I would invite you to put those questions with regard to those details directly to the commissioner.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Commissioner, can you provide information to Canadians about how many of these alleged so-called police stations are operating in Canada or have operated previously, and if any of them have been shut down?

February 6th, 2023 / 6:40 p.m.

Commissioner Brenda Lucki Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Currently, we're looking at three of the police stations in Toronto and one in Vancouver. Obviously, we're working with our police of jurisdiction, as well as with the Government of Canada national security agencies. We've initiated an investigation, and it's led by the greater Toronto integrated national security enforcement team, INSET.

So far, the elements of our investigation have been very overt—marked police cars and members in uniform—to cause disruption to the allegations. We've had that visible presence, and that's mostly so that people will see the actions, first of all, because we need more information. We hope—and it did occur—when we do this, a lot of people come forward to provide information because they see the police in the area dealing with the allegations. The investigation is ongoing, obviously, and I can't get into the various details specifically, but we did put out a statement in October or November saying that we were actually investigating reports of possible—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Pardon me.

You can confirm that you know the location of these supposed police stations and that you have RCMP in uniform at those locations causing a disruption. Is that correct?

6:40 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

In the initial instances, we did a disruption by going in uniform with marked police cars to speak with the people involved in those police stations or locations, because those locations are a legitimate business in the front.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Can you give a timeline of when you think your investigation will conclude whether or not these allegations are true, whether these are, in fact, police stations?

6:40 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Normally, they're very lengthy investigations. There's a lot of information coming in that we need to go through. Like I said, I can't get into specific details because it's ongoing.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Has anyone been arrested or deported, or have any credentials of diplomats been revoked in response to these police stations operating in Canada?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

No, if any of that had happened, then I could speak more about it—if there were any charges laid—but that is not the case.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

No charges have been laid.

Perhaps the minister can comment on whether there have been any diplomatic credentials removed from anyone involved from the PRC.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I would echo the response that you got from the commissioner, which is to say that, if there are any actions taken, then the government will share that information when it can.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Nothing has been shared. Therefore, we can conclude that no one has been arrested or has had their credentials removed. Is that correct?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Okay.

My understanding is that the RCMP in the past legitimately has had co-operation with the Chinese police. Is that continuing?

6:45 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

We did have two liaison officers in China. We took them out a couple of years ago. We returned one liaison officer back to Beijing, and we work with the ministry of public safety in that country for urgent files of mutual interest, because it's more than just interference. It's a lot of the movement of controlled substances and drugs.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you.

Minister, I don't believe that anyone from your government mentioned that the Prime Minister or any cabinet minister has publicly reviewed the operations of these so-called police stations operating in Canada in clear violation of our sovereignty and international law.

Would you like to take this opportunity right now to rebuke the PRC, if these so-called police stations are, in fact, operating on Canadian soil illegally?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I would underline, Ms. Dancho, that the government has always been vigilant and proactive when it comes to highlighting any conduct that runs afoul of Canadian laws and conventions around diplomatic conduct.

You heard the commissioner just state that in one of her previous interactions with foreign agents from abroad. We will never apologize, as I said during my remarks, for standing up for the Canadian national interests.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Can you provide just the last—

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Excuse me, Ms. Dancho. You are practically out of time for now. You will have more time later.

We will now go to Ms. Yip for six minutes or less.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Minister, associate deputy minister and Commissioner Lucki to our committee.

I was first alerted by a concerned constituent who had heard that there was an alleged police station in the riding, and that was back in the fall of 2022. He was very worried about foreign interference and harassment of the Chinese community and the threat to Canada's national security.

What would you say to this constituent?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you, Ms. Yip, for bringing that concern to this committee. It's one that I have heard expressed by a number of our colleagues.

I would say to that individual that the government, including the many agencies that work within the community of public safety, are there to support Canadians and other individuals within Canada who may have been the target of foreign interference in its various forms, whether it's through intimidation, harassment or any other kind of pressure that is untoward. That is one of the reasons the RCMP and other law enforcement agencies at different levels publish hotlines and publish general email accounts that allow individuals within various communities and diaspora to reach out without there being any pressure on them to do so.

Once they do, they are able to provide information in a way that is safe and secure with the positive reinforcement that we are there to protect them, to protect the community and to protect our national security. That was one of the things that I alluded to in my introductory remarks: Even as we expand our tool kit to protect communities from potential threats related to foreign interference, we have to bring Canadians along. We have to engender trust and confidence.

It is equally important that we enhance our transparency and our accountability, which is what we have done by creating NSIRA and NSICOP, but equally in the resources and tools that we provide to the community through the RCMP and other police services.