Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Adam Fisher]

I wouldn't comment specifically on TikTok and what our assessment may or may not be of that company. I can certainly confirm in a general way that what you said about social media being a potential platform that does get exploited for foreign influence activity is true. It's a platform where vast amounts of data can be collected—personal, identifying information. It can assist the adversary in honing in their own targeting in terms of foreign influence activity. It's also a vector for messaging and narratives that are friendly to and supportive of the authoritarian regime, while at the same time, suppressing voices that may be contrary.

We see that in social media.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Would you recommend that TikTok be banned from Government of Canada's devices and from the Parliament of Canada's devices?

[Adam Fisher]

I wouldn't recommend that, Mr. Chair. The service provides assessments and advice to government and decision-makers. That sort of thing is done in a confidential setting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Mr. Dubourg, it's over to you now for five minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, witnesses, it is my turn to greet you. Thank you for being here at this late hour to take part in our study.

We know that there is an ongoing RCMP investigation. There are a number of questions that may be difficult for you to answer, but I will ask them anyway.

Can you comment on whether, since this story about the infamous police stations came out in the media, threats to citizens related to the three or four stations you uncovered have decreased?

[C/Supt Matt Peggs]

Thank you for the question. I prefer to answer in English.

No, I'm not in a position to comment on that today, unfortunately. Anything that I would say with respect to what we've determined makes up the fabric of the investigation. I can't comment on that. I apologize for that.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you. I will give it a second try.

Earlier, we spoke with Ms. Lucki about the toll-free line. Are you able to tell us in general terms the types of threats that Canadians report when they call that number?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Thank you for the question.

I would say that the nature of the complaints we receive varies. I don't have the data at this time on the types of threats that are complained about, but I can check with my colleagues in the RCMP to get that data and provide it to you in writing.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

Let me come back to the threats. I understand that it is Chinese Canadians who are targeted. However, it is often the case that other communities share the demands of the Chinese community and support them. Are these other people also facing threats from police stations?

[C/Supt Matt Peggs]

Anything that we've learned with respect to the alleged police stations themselves is not something that I'm going to be able to comment on. I can speak in generalities about these types of investigations and things like that. I can't speak about anything specific to the police stations.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Let me try one more question.

I'd like to know about, let's say, those police individuals. Do you know if they come from China or if they are already people in Canada? Did they just arrive in Canada or were they installed in Canada? Lastly, can we link them to the Embassy of China in Canada?

[C/Supt Matt Peggs]

To get the answers to those questions we need to let the investigation run its course so that the investigators can do what they have to do, and then some of those answers can become known. As of now, I can't say anything about it.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you so much, and good luck in your job.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Maybe, Mr. Dubourg, you can sign on and go and ask those questions directly and find out for yourself.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I will wait for the investigation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Very good.

Mr. Trudel, it's over to you for two and a half minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Ms. Gauvin, I imagine that you are familiar with the Safeguard Defenders organization. According to the Safeguard Defenders, Chinese service centres, which are non-profit organizations that provide food, clothing and shelter, often quietly turn into Chinese intelligence centres. I think that's what happened in Toronto and Vancouver.

As it happens, there is such a centre in Montreal. Have you received any information that a service centre, a police station or an intelligence centre is being set up in Montreal?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Trudel.

If we received information that such a police station is being set up in the Montreal area, we would certainly try to find out the location and investigate.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

If I understand correctly, you have no information at this time that such a police station is being developed in Montreal.

[Brigitte Gauvin]

At this time, I cannot confirm whether we are currently conducting an investigation or if we have received any information about it.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

When it comes to espionage, we often hear that foreign students at McGill University and Concordia University, both in Montreal, are working for the Chinese government. This has often been mentioned in newspaper articles and news items, but it is never made very clear.

Are there Chinese government cells still operating in these two Montreal universities?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

I will give you the same kind of answer as before.

If we received information that Chinese cells were operating in Canadian universities, we would certainly investigate. We take these kinds of allegations very seriously.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

However, you are not going to tell us about it tonight.

[Brigitte Gauvin]

I cannot, as I have to protect ongoing investigations.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I see. Thank you for being here tonight.