Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[David Vigneault]

We have been quite open about the fact that the CSIS Act was created in 1984 at a time when we were talking about analog technology, when the threat environment was during the Cold War, so it's very different.

The world has evolved, unfortunately going in the wrong direction from many points of view regarding Canada's national security. Our effort has been to generate a mature discussion with the government and with Canadians to make sure that more people are involved. That's why, for example, CSIS and I, personally, have been engaged in making more public speeches and engaging with communities like universities, the business sector and marginalized communities to essentially talk about the fact that national security in our country should not be a zero-sum game. We should be able to have both the right tools and the right legislation to protect Canadians, while at the same time protecting their privacy and their security interests.

That has been the focus of our efforts.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

You're not sure that we have that in place right now.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.

Is Michael going to take this? All right.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes, I'm going to share some time with my colleague, MP Dancho.

Minister, just to follow up on the SITE task force that was established, its primary purpose is intragovernmental coordination. It's not a decision-making body. Each constituent entity of the task force is responsible for making its own decisions and its own communications, coordinated through the normal process during the writ through PCO.

The problem with this task force is that it doesn't tell political actors, doesn't tell parties and candidates, if there is a threat going on during the election. Clearly, SITE was monitoring interference in the election that was targeting MP Kenny Chiu. They highlighted that in their documents that were released months later, but MP Kenny Chiu—the candidate Kenny Chiu—had no idea this was taking place.

Again, there's a lack of transparency in informing political parties, candidates and MPs about the threats they're facing. We get these general briefings of general application, and we're never told if we're the target. I very well could be a target. I want to know if I'm a target. I want to know that.

That's the kind of information the government is failing to provide to parties, candidates and MPs, which other democracies are doing as a best practice. As CSIS has highlighted, sunshine and transparency are tools available to the Government of Canada to counterpoint interference. A lot of this stuff doesn't rise to the level where it can be prosecuted through law; therefore, the only tool we have is transparency. If we're flying blind and we don't know who the 11 candidates are, if we don't know who's being targeted, we're not going to be as effective as we could be and as some of our allies are.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would just say in response that you raise a number of very legitimate concerns, particularly with regard to the initiating of criminal proceedings against those who would attempt to engage in foreign interference. Having spent some time in the criminal justice system, I recognize fully that there is an ongoing challenge around the transitioning of intelligence into evidence that is admissible and that can be used and adduced to prove the types of offences that would bring those individuals responsible for that conduct to justice. I take your point on that.

In addition, I embrace the conversation around how those decisions are made and around how much is shared and when. As I said, the elected branch of government is there to work with our public service to inform their discretion during elections—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Minister, with respect, those entities, the agencies, the departments, the boards, the commissions, they have to go through the communications protocols of the Government of Canada, which as we know in this town is an information desert. We don't get told anything, so it's going to require direction from the cabinet to the constituent bodies to indicate to them that they are free to relay this information to parties, to candidates and to MPs. That's what needs to happen.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would submit that in the context of SITE and the protocol around critical instance they have that unfettered discretion. The extent of cabinet's direction is in the protocol that's done in consultation with the independent public service, but once we're into the writ, they exercise that discretion.

You don't want—and I would underline this again, Mr. Chong—you, or I, or any party to start to pierce that veil, because it is a slippery slope. I would just point out that, yes, we do have to constantly reassess whether or not the transparency bar is being met. Again, I embrace that conversation, but those decisions should be undertaken by our public servants once we're talking about elections.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I'm not suggesting we release information injurious to national security. What I am suggesting is that, if 11 candidates were targeted in the 2019 election, surely the parties involved and the candidates involved should be informed of that.

Going forward I would hope that would be the case so that we can take action, particularly for measures that don't rise to the level of something that could be prosecuted under the law, whether it's the Criminal Code or other non-criminal law.

Mr. Chair, those are all the questions I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

I want to remind everybody that we will have one more round. You'll each have two more five-minute slots as will the Liberals, and then, of course, we'll have two and a half minutes for our Bloc and NDP friends.

For the final five minutes in this round we will go to Mr. Dubourg.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I see some jockeying back and forth among my colleagues in the Conservatives. I can stay for another minute if that will help ease the pressure.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's great.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

There you go. I'm always trying to help in the spirit of bipartisanship, Mr. Dubourg.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you also to the Minister of Public Safety for allowing us to ask him more questions and for his transparency.

I, too, would like to welcome the witnesses here this evening.

Mr. Minister, I'd like your views on the following.

As members of Parliament and as elected officials, we can be seen as being followed or targeted. We sit on the Special Committee on the Canada—People's Republic of China Relationship, and I think that we are being watched and singled out by foreign actors. I was a member of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. Foreign groups are interested in elected officials who sit on these committees.

Shouldn't we make a distinction between being targeted and being threatened? I'm assuming that if a member of Parliament is actually threatened, they will be informed, whether or not they sit on one of these committees. Is that the case?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Dubourg, you're absolutely right. All members of the House of Commons, as well as all Canadian elected officials, including municipal officials, are targeted by hostile actors. We must always remain vigilant in the context of such threats. That's why the agencies represented here today are constantly addressing these threats using the tools at their disposal.

However, you mentioned that there is sometimes stereotyping and stigmatization of racialized communities or Canadians, and that's why the reforms need to continue. It's in my mandate letter from Prime Minister. I thank the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service for their efforts, together with the government, to commit to the necessary reforms to strengthen the trust of all Canadians, while modernizing our tool kit.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Vigneault, my next question is along the same lines as the previous one. If your organization detects a threat, are you prevented by law from sharing that information with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to take appropriate action?

[David Vigneault]

Thank you for the question.

Different scenarios are possible. If we're talking about threats to individuals, threats to physical integrity and an immediate risk, we will always work with the RCMP, no problem.

If the threat is more diffuse and more long‑term, however, we can use some specialized authorities, such as threat reduction measures. We use these authorities to communicate targeted information rather than general information.

There is a certain process to follow. You can be sure that if the service has access to information, it will be passed on to the people involved.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much.

Commissioner Lucki, you confirmed in your remarks what we already know, that these police stations are under investigation. Do you know of anyone who has been approached or intimidated by the individuals who work there? Have you been in touch with them to find out more?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Thank you for the question.

That's exactly why we went there in uniform and in a patrol car. We wanted to be totally visible, and we wanted the community to see that we were taking action against these police stations. We made sure to give people a phone number and an email address so that they could report things like this to the police. This has given us a lot of information, which we will use if necessary to lay charges when we get to that point in our investigation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We'll now go to our next round.

We'll begin with Ms. Dancho for five minutes or less.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have one follow-up question for the commissioner, and perhaps the minister can answer.

You mentioned that we have one RCMP officer in China. How many Chinese police officers do we have operating in Canada?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That's a good question.

Obviously in the embassy, they have.... I don't think they have any actual police officers, but they do have people in the ministry. I'd have to double-check on that.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Could you double-check and get that information to the committee?

I have a follow-up. If we don't know if there are any formally operating within the bounds of our diplomatic agreements, as we have one operating in China.... I'm just concerned that if there are any, how can we be sure they're not engaging in Operation Fox Hunt, which, as I'm sure you know, is a global covert operation run by the Chinese in foreign countries in looking to root out any dissidents of the PRC?

Can you outline briefly if you have any knowledge of this, and if there's anyone from China operating under that auspice in Canada?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

There haven't been any files recently opened under Fox Hunt, but we have had incidents in the past. Those are all followed up succinctly.

Any of the people who would come from China as far as the government goes would be situated in Ottawa only. It's again.... Beyond foreign interference, of course, it's the movement of contraband.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

For the minister, regarding the spy balloon, my understanding is that the Canadian people did not find out about the spy balloon from your government. It was actually from the American news agencies and from their government. The American government told the American news agencies very transparently.

Canadians actually found out about the spy balloon that was over Canadian sovereignty for several days not from your government and not from a Canadian news agency, but from an American one. Do you find that acceptable?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, Ms. Dancho, as you well know, when it comes to the briefings the government receives from our national security and intelligence community of agencies, there is a lot of regard, first, to being careful and cautious around when information is released so that we do not in any way jeopardize the integrity of the operations that are being undertaken to protect national security, as well as the people who are engaged in those operations.

That is a matter of the utmost sensitivity, as you can appreciate, but when we—