Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Commissioner Lucki, many people may not speak English and French well. How will you help those of Chinese background who may not speak English well but want to speak to someone in their own language about intimidation or harassment regarding the police stations?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We have resources and translation services when people want to bring forward their concerns in their own home language. It's really important for us as a police agency, when we work with the police of jurisdiction. We have to ensure that we do much engagement to strengthen that trust in the community, because often people are fearful to come forward. That's, in fact, why we created a 1-800 number, so if people don't feel comfortable going to, for example, a police station, or are fearful, they can call the 1-800 number. We also have an email address where they can send their concerns. That especially works well if the person's first language is not English or French. They can write in their language, and we can have that translated.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

That's good. Would that also apply for residents of Russian and Iranian backgrounds?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We always have access to various different translation services. We might not have them if they arrive at the police of jurisdiction, but they do everything possible to make it available as soon as possible.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Minister, what are your thoughts on having a foreign agents registry?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The short answer is that there is an intention to begin consultations on the possibility of creating such an initiative.

Before we do that, we have to be sure that Canadians understand why we are looking to modernize our tool kit when it comes to protecting against foreign interference. That means bringing them along, engendering trust and making sure that the appropriate accountability mechanisms are in place, so that we raise the bar when it comes to transparency.

The fact of the matter is that, even as the geopolitical landscape becomes more complex, we are, at the same time, reforming our institutions within the public safety and national security apparatus so that they are more diverse, more inclusive and more culturally sensitive, as you have just asked. You're beginning to hear the reflections of those values in the various initiatives that are being rolled out to support the diaspora, who are often the target of foreign interference.

We have to keep all options open, including the potential creation of a foreign agent registry.

As we embark on that I would say two closing things. One is that we need to maximize our current tool kit, which we are doing vigilantly every day. Then, as we expand it, we need to make sure that we bring Canadians along in a way that is transparent.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What is the most important tool you would suggest or point to in that tool kit?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's all of them.

That's why I took some time to highlight the various initiatives that the Government of Canada has put forward to protect our democratic institutions with the independent panels. It is so we can be sure that Canadians are able to exercise their vote in free and fair elections. It's so we can be sure we are putting forward a plan to be vigilant when it comes to our cybersecurity and critical infrastructure and that we are protecting our economy and our academic research institutions. It's to be sure that we are able to protect our interests both here and abroad by modernizing our foreign policy. That is exactly what we have done through the launch of the Indo-Pacific strategy, which includes as a core component our approach to managing the complex relationship with China.

We need to be leveraging all of those tools simultaneously, so that we can manage, mitigate and address threats to our national security. That is something, I might add, that the agencies that are represented at this table do a very good job of every single day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Minister.

Now we'll go over to Mr. Trudel for six minutes or less.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all of our guests for joining us tonight. I know this is a complex issue that is not always straightforward.

This weekend, some sort of a balloon flew over North America with impunity, from the northwest to the southeast, until it reached the Atlantic Ocean and the Americans decided to shoot it down. This incident caught our imagination: we are talking about a Chinese balloon flying across our territory.

However, there was not much of a response by the government. Yet, we are talking about a foreign government opening police stations here. It was also recently reported that the Chinese government funded political candidates in the last general election, which is interference in Canada's democratic system.

We are under the impression that Canada is a sieve when it comes to foreign interference. Do you think Canada is a sieve, Minister?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No. I trust our public safety and intelligence agencies.

First, they have the tools they need to deal with any threats, including those you mentioned in your question.

Second, the government continues to make investments to increase their resources and the tools at their disposal. This includes modernizing legal texts. In particular, I mentioned the legislation that governs investments. In addition, I have introduced a new bill to strengthen these authorities and to protect our critical cybersecurity infrastructure. It's a combination of investments and legislative and administrative tools. Discussions and consultations are also held with all Canadians.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics will conduct a study on foreign interference.

Have you been invited to appear, Minister? Will you be testifying before those committees?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

So far, I have received many invitations to appear before various committees, so I will take your word for it. I am always available to testify on matters of interference.

Today, I know that this committee is looking at some issues related to police stations operated in Canada by the People's Republic of China. In my view, the RCMP's activities are critical to this issue if we are to mitigate the risks and know whether to investigate.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Vigneault or Ms. Lucki.

Mr. Vigneault, we briefly talked before the meeting about the issue I am going to raise.

Hydro-Québec is important infrastructure of Quebec. It's a crown jewel of Quebec Inc., let's put it that way. Now, a Chinese spy set up shop there and took pictures. We know that he was working at Hydro-Québec's research institute. They work on electric batteries, they produce electric motors and conduct research there.

It is thought that the spy in question probably took pictures of what we are doing in Quebec and would have transmitted them to the Chinese government, which is still important and serious. While Canada and Quebec want to position themselves as bearers of tomorrow's green and sustainable energy, we realize that a major power is watching what we are doing full time. That's serious, after all.

What was your reaction? Is it safe to assume that China has gained access to other major infrastructure in Quebec and Canada?

[David Vigneault, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Trudel, thank you for your question. I will give you a two-part answer.

First, I can talk about national security and security intelligence. Then I may ask my colleague the RCMP commissioner to talk about the investigation.

It is unfortunately not a surprise when these types of situations occur. We have made it clear to Canadians in the past and in recent years that economic espionage, among other types of threats, is one of the things we are most concerned about. The future sovereignty and prosperity of all Canadians and Quebeckers is at stake. Our secrets being stolen will prevent us from prospering.

What is also important is to look at what enables Canada to be competitive and prosperous in advanced technologies. You mentioned green technologies. We're also talking about biotechnologies and artificial intelligence. Many places in Canada and Quebec have established centres of expertise. Those are unfortunately targets.

Therefore, we work closely with other national security partners to try to raise awareness and inform people, within the limits of what we can make public, to increase their resilience. We have some very real examples where, as a result of different interventions on our part, companies have told us that they have been able to stop some of the interference and espionage activities.

As far as this particular investigation goes, perhaps I can ask the commissioner to talk about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Trudel, I'm sorry, sir, but your time has expired.

We now move to Ms. McPherson for six minutes or less.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all of the witnesses for being here.

Thank you, Minister, for making the time to come. I do understand that you have lots of invitations, so we're grateful that you were able to make this one of your stops.

Like my colleague Mr. Trudel, Canadians and everyone in this room are concerned about their security. Canadians of course are very worried about hearing things like that our elections are at risk, that our academic institutions are at risk, that there are police stations operating in our communities or that there are spy balloons floating over our communities. This is very worrying for all Canadians and certainly everyone in this room.

I have a series of questions for you with regard to the police stations.

How have you talked to impacted communities? What does that dialogue look like? How have you made sure that impacted communities are being heard? What we've heard in my constituency office and from groups around the country is that they don't feel protected. They don't feel heard. They don't feel that the government is listening and doing things. They're being told to contact the RCMP, and the RCMP tells them to contact their police. The police tell them to contact the government. They're not feeling like the government is taking care of them.

Minister, how do I respond to that? What you're telling other members of this committee is that these groups are being protected, but what they are feeling is that they are not.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I assure you that they are being protected by the array of tools and measures that I highlighted during my remarks. I also take your point that there is a level of anxiety and disconnect at times that is felt by various communities. That's because of the historical context and the relationship between our institutions and those communities, and all of the institutional challenges that go along with it, as well as the complexity of today's challenges when it comes to national security threats. The combination of those factors does I think create a degree of concern.

Now, in response to that question, what I would offer to you and the members of this committee is that my office, my agencies and my department are constantly doing outreach. Beyond the ad hoc outreach that we do, we have institutionalized consultations through a variety of forums, including the cross-cultural round table on security, and through the transparency initiative, which is headed by my deputy minister. We seek to reach into communities and invite them to be part of an ongoing conversation and dialogue to break down those barriers.

It is not easy, but we have to keep at it. As we address the complexities around the challenges of the threats to national security, we have to engender trust and confidence. You can only do that if you are transparent, and these conversations help that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

What we're looking at, though, is transnational repression. We know how complicated that can be.

We also have a situation, from what I hear from your statement, Minister, with regard to academic guidelines. I'm sorry, but guidelines don't really help. That's not going to solve any of these problems. It's like asking nicely, which I'm not sure is the response we should have here.

You talked about the foreign agent registry and that it's on the table and you're thinking about it. It feels like we've had impacted communities tell us this has been a big problem for a very long time. We are now in a situation where you're considering guidelines, you're thinking about a registry and you're hoping we might be able to move on impacted communities. Does it not seem to you that much of this work should have already been done?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think it's more precise to say that we have concrete guidelines in place when it comes to protecting our academic institutions.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

What if they don't follow those guidelines?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. McPherson, there are working groups to ensure there is accountability and rigour when it comes to the application of those guidelines. I can assure you that the government works very closely with academic institutions to make sure the application of those guidelines is consistent and coherent, so that we are not in any way allowing for a back door into our institutions for foreign interference.

How do we do that? We use tools. Those tools, as I said in my introductory remarks, probe into who the research partners are and the subject matter of research. The guidelines are quite precise in identifying sensitive areas so that there is a strict standard and screening prior to that partnership being finalized. Those guidelines are in place. They're objective, they're normed and they do protect us.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

If there are funding agreements with the federal government—the research grants—and those guidelines aren't followed, is that funding being withheld?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would share any concern about any research partnership that did not apply the guidelines. That is why we have to be vigilant about it, which is why—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry, but concerns are different from whether or not that funding would be withdrawn.