Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Of course, when we're dealing with this, these are allegations. We have to gather up the evidence from sources. There's a lot of intelligence coming in, and Director Vigneault spoke about the fact that turning intelligence into evidence is not always easy in our judicial system. That is part of our challenge, but we do take those threats seriously.

If people are in danger or in a situation

where they feel they can be sent home, we need to know that. We're going to investigate that.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I imagine you meet with these people? Do you conduct interviews? If people feel that they are threatened, that their lives are in danger or that they and their families are at risk of being sent back to China, do you investigate?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, absolutely. We give them our toll-free number so that they can provide us with the necessary information. Also, if they're willing to come forward, we will, of course, use their statement in our investigation.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

To your knowledge, has the Chinese government been successful in repatriating to China Canadian citizens who were human rights activists or even imprisoning them? Do you have any figures on that?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, as far as I know there is none. There are no recent police records on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

Ms. McPherson, you have two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, again, to all of the witnesses for being here today.

Commissioner Lucki, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.

You spoke about the 1-800 number that has been set up. How many people have called that number?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't have that number in front of me.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do you have access to that number? Do you know if it's actually being utilized by the community?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I know that when we went in, like I said, in uniform with our police vehicles shortly thereafter, that visibility allowed more information to come in via the police of jurisdiction, the 1-800 number or the email.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

If you could, I would like you to provide the committee afterward with the number of how many people have accessed that 1-800 number. Maybe you'll have to get some of those numbers for us. I think it would be quite useful for us to know whether it is an effective tool.

I'm recognizing that you're talking an awful lot about gathering information. You're talking a lot about how important it is to get the information to have that for the investigation. I'm not hearing how that's translating into protection for people and communities that are impacted. Like I said earlier, I've heard many times from many people—from the Uighur community and Hong Kongers across Canada—who have been threatened. They have tried to reach out to their local police. Their police have not been trained. They have not had the tools to do the job of protecting people. They have not been given solutions. The RCMP has not gotten back to people.

I understand that you're gathering a lot of information, but what are you doing actively—not in the future and not after the case is done—to protect Canadians and other people who are being impacted?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

In most of those areas—in the big municipalities—it's up to the police of jurisdiction to provide safety within their communities. For the RCMP, our role is to gather the information.

We have to make sure in our engagement with the public that they feel safe to bring that information forward, so we can initiate an investigation.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

You feel that the RCMP role is just gathering the information, then.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, our role is doing the investigation. That's why it's important for people to bring the information to us, so we can initiate an investigation and complete the investigation with a goal—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

With all due respect, you don't have the numbers of how many people have come to you with the information.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't have that at my level. People have used that phone number. We will follow up on every investigation and every lead that we get. These are complicated investigations. They're not as straightforward as one would think.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

No, I don't think anyone in this room expects that they are not complicated, but I do think we need to do more to protect Canadians who are being impacted.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

Commissioner Lucki, I do hope that you follow up with the request for statistics. Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Mr. Genuis for five minutes or less.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair. It's great to be back at this committee.

Minister, were or are foreign diplomats involved in the operations of these so-called police stations?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I can appreciate the question and your desire to get an answer to it.

I would defer to the commissioner of the RCMP, who, as I said at the outset—I don't know if you were here for my opening remarks or not, Mr. Genuis—is carrying out an active investigation. I want to be respectful of operational limits.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I have limited time, so I'll just go quickly to the commissioner.

Are foreign diplomats involved in the operation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can't give you any of the information regarding the investigation to protect the methods—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, in general, are any foreign diplomats engaged in inappropriate interference activities here in Canada?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Again, I would point out that we get briefings all the time with regard to potential threats that involve foreign interference. For obvious reasons, when it comes to active investigations or operations, I would defer both to my colleague at CSIS, the director, Mr. Vigneault, or the RCMP.