Evidence of meeting #22 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks very much for being here. I have just a couple of questions.
Maybe I'll start with you, Mr. Hutchison, if I could. I want to be clear: When previous questioners were asking how many companies had had services withdrawn from them, can you tell us how many companies the government supports through the TCS, and perhaps how many in China?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
The TCS supports roughly 10,000 clients. From year to year, it's around 10,000.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
In China particularly...? This is the Canada-China committee.
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I don't have that figure.
Jodi Robinson Acting Director General, North East Asia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
It really depends on the year. For example, due to COVID there was a significant drop-off. I would say that probably at the pinnacle of our relationship in 2018, we were supporting around 3,500 clients. This past year it's gone down to about 1,500. Keep in mind that the clients are those who actually make contact with the TCS themselves. It's not a proactive necessary basis.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
If those companies commit a human rights violation, or if they are accused of committing a human rights violation, the TCS then withdraws the services in a confidential manner. Is that accurate?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
The TCS takes all allegations seriously, but we go through various steps before withdrawing services.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Would that include the core? How would those steps be done? Has it ever been done? I know that you aren't able to provide us with the number of times it has been done, but has it ever been done?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes. The TCS has withdrawn services for clients. It's very rare. I'd like to emphasize that.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
My understanding, from the testimony we heard in the international trade committee, is that there are multiple instances of Canadian companies being accused of human rights violations, and that support was not withdrawn from those companies. I think you mentioned that there is a need to bring in the RCMP if there is Canadian legislation, but I'm not sure which Canadian legislation that is.
My understanding is that the international trade minister, for example, has the mandate to create legislation that has not been created. In fact, Bill S-211, which came forward recently, actually doesn't impose any sorts of penalties on companies. Basically, it nicely asks companies to do better.
Is that accurate?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
The law that comes most to mind in terms of referral to law enforcement would be the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Do you feel that it's sufficient to hold Canadian companies to account if they are committing human rights violations abroad? We have heard quite frequently, particularly within the garment industry and particularly within the mining and extractive industries, that Canadian companies do not protect human rights. They do not protect environmental rights. They do not protect indigenous communities.
Do you feel that this legislation is strong enough to meet the needs of those communities, or do you think the minister should in fact live up to her mandate letter? That's a tricky question for you. Do you think the legislation is fine and is sufficient?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I can't comment or speculate on whether current legislation is sufficient in terms of accountability. I would note that the government in budget 2023 announced a commitment to introduce legislation by 2024 to eradicate forced labour from Canadian supply chains.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
They announced it quite a bit sooner than that and haven't actually done that yet. Obviously, I'm not implying that it's your issue. It's the government's issue.
I have one last question that I wanted to get some clarity on. You spoke about the fact that you require an integrity declaration, that you “reinforce expectations” with companies and that you will “withdraw services”, but you will not share the names of the companies from which you have withdrawn services. It does seem a bit like you're asking companies to play nicely. If they don't play nicely, you're protecting them by not releasing that information publicly. Is that accurate?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I can speak only to our process. Trade commissioner services are discretionary and can be withdrawn at any point.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I have just one last question.
How do you find out that there are potential human rights abuses being committed by a company? How does that process happen, and, ultimately, who determines that? Is that a ministerial determination? Is that determined with the department? How is that decision made?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I'd like to provide the committee with a really precise answer to that important question, because it's fairly complex. If the committee would accept, we would be prepared to submit a written answer on that.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
That's not very complex, but does the final decision sit with the minister?
Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I don't believe the final decision on that rests with the minister.
NDP
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, Ms. McPherson.
We'll now go to our second round, and we'll begin with Mr. Kmiec for five minutes.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want an answer to Mr. Garnett Genuis's question.
Human rights matter only when they materially impact financial performance. Is that correct, Ms. Wrye?
Director, Pensions Policy, Financial Crimes and Security Division, Department of Finance
I would say that issues such as human rights are definitely a consideration that should be taken into account in all investment decisions by pension plan administrators.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Do they, or don't they? You were very specific in your language. You said, “materially affects financial performance”, so if it doesn't materially affect financial performance, then it doesn't matter and is not considered. Is that correct?