Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, before asking questions, I have to admit that I am somewhat gobsmacked by the comments of my Conservative Party colleagues, who seem to be feigning ignorance about what clean energy is. Some of them are very experienced and have taken part in a large number of discussions and debates about the environment and climate change. Today, claiming not to understand what clean energy is, I think that is a bit rich, but hey, it is not the first time—or the last, I imagine—from the Conservative Party.

That being said, I would like to address the environment department representatives. I would like them to explain a little better how they envisage, in Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy, collaboration by Canada with the countries in the region in relation to adapting to climate change and climate disturbances and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. This is extremely important for our generation and the generations that follow.

What is Canada considering doing with the countries in the region to adapt to climate change and mitigate its effects?

[Sandra McCardell]

Mr. Chair, clearly our ability to engage substantively with the Indo-Pacific is critical to how the globe is going to address climate change.

You heard my introductory remarks. These are huge emitters, and we need to push them to make a difference in how they behave. At the same time, we need to look at those countries most affected and help them adapt and address their environmental impacts like rising sea levels.

How are we doing this? As I mentioned, we have a large envelope of climate finance managed by Environment Canada and Global Affairs. This is used to support multilateral initiatives and a number of UN programs that are meant to help countries adapt. Some of that is climate finance that is done through multilateral development banks, and some of it is bilateral, again, managed by both departments. It's really focused on practical measures to help countries adapt.

At the same time, we want to make sure that they're taking steps now to reduce their carbon footprint. That's certainly part of what this program is going to do. It's also going to be part of what we're trying to achieve at COP28, starting just this week. There are a lot of negotiations that have taken place in the lead-up to that. We're working with the biggest emitters, but also in the small countries, to be really ambitious so that we can stay within our 1.5°C goal.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you for that answer.

Yes, the Indo-Pacific region does include countries that are big greenhouse gas emitters because they have huge populations. Obviously, we are thinking of China and India. However, when we consider emissions per capita, Canada ranks among the worst countries: a Canadian produces more greenhouse gas than a person in China or India, for example, so we still have a lot of work to do ourselves. The present government is missing all its GHG reduction targets and we are one of the planet's losers when you look at our emissions per capita.

There are countries in the Indo-Pacific region that are at risk of disappearing, of being completely erased from the map. There are little islands that might quite simply be underwater in a few years because of the glaciers melting and sea levels rising. What is there in Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy regarding the impact of rising sea levels on these small countries and these little islands, which are genuinely at risk?

[Sandra McCardell]

There are a couple of things that are approaching that. One is, as you suggested, working with those smaller countries themselves, and I'll come back to that.

There's also the fact that all of this is tied to one single global environment. How we can help them best is by helping the entire world achieve the goals that it needs to achieve, the plans that it needs to achieve, to keep the world within the 1.5°C warming. Part of what we do is work to make sure that we are doing what we need to do in Canada and that we are pushing our partners internationally. Again, as I mentioned, that's going to be a big part of what we talk about at COP28, starting in just a few days.

With these countries, some of our funding goes through multilateral organizations—that could be the United Nations Environment Programme, for example—to work with countries to develop plans to help them prepare for and respond to disasters. Some of that is on capacity building, and it can be things like working with them on how they treat the methane that comes from their solid waste. There are a lot of levels that we're working at.

I'll be honest. I think the Secretary-General of the UN said it really well in September, when he said what we need to do is “everything, everywhere, all at once”. That's certainly an approach that we believe is appropriate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

You have only a few seconds left, Mr. Boulerice. I think we'll move on to our next questioner.

The second round will begin with Mr. Chong. You have five minutes or less.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

I don't understand how Canada can co-operate with the People's Republic of China on climate change. Last year, the PRC approved the largest expansion of coal-fired electricity power plants since 2015. Presently, through executive direction from the top, China is deliberately increasing the burning of coal. In fact, today, China burns more coal than the rest of the world combined. Last year, it burned a record amount of coal, and this year it is looking to burn an even greater amount of coal. As a result, global coal consumption, which was supposed to peak about a decade ago, according to the International Energy Agency, has not yet peaked.

I don't understand how we can co-operate with the PRC when it is deliberately and massively increasing the most polluting form of fossil energy, which is coal.

[Sandra McCardell]

Mr. Chair, it is absolutely the case that China is the world's greatest emitter. It emits 27% of GHG and accounts for half of the use of coal in the world. That is absolutely the case. Fundamentally, though, I think the only way we can move China forward is by engaging with China. There is a need to address those who are the greatest emitters and to push them along to address what they need to do. At the same time, China is arguably the largest producer of renewable energy as well, and has certainly been a leader in the development of some of the electric vehicles. I think there are reasons on both the emitter side and the renewable energy side to engage with China.

I would point out that we saw very recently the summit between Biden and Xi. The Sunnylands environmental agreement that came out of that demonstrates that even the biggest countries in the world understand that we need to engage with China. We're not going to get there if we don't.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I just take note that last year coal was Canada's top export to the following Indo-Pacific trading partners: Japan, India, the PRC, South Korea and Taiwan. That was our top export.

I want to move on to critical minerals, because the Indo-Pacific strategy mentions that Canada will be “a reliable supplier” of critical minerals to the Indo-Pacific region.

According to Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, a research firm, in order to meet the 2035 battery electric vehicle mandates, some 384 new critical mineral mines and plants are needed. According to the U.S. Geological Survey and the Government of Canada, Canada has about 2% to 3% of the world's critical minerals. Extrapolating from that, 3% of 384 is roughly a dozen new mines in Canada in order to meet the 2035 goals.

I don't see anything happening on debt capital markets, on equity capital markets or on the TSX. I don't see anything happening with mining companies here proposing new projects that would lead me to believe we're going to be building and approving 12 new mines here in this country as part of the 384 mines that are needed.

Can you tell us how we're going to meet that Indo-Pacific goal to be a reliable supplier of critical minerals to the region?

[Frank Des Rosiers]

The member is quite right to point this out, and there are different sources that would point to the same direction. It's a very sharp upward trend in terms of needs for the supply of critical minerals.

Canada is blessed with a very large resource endowment in so many of those critical minerals. We have given ourselves the means in support for R and D. Just last week, a $1.5-billion envelope was confirmed and rendered public for infrastructure development—which is a major obstacle, as you know—to ensure that those products are available and to get them to market.

When we look at engagement by private sector firms.... Should any of you have attended the PDAC conference in Toronto in March, you would have seen literally tens of thousands of expert scientists, geologists and investors flocking to Canada to engage in deal-making.

We're actually quite optimistic that the ramp-up will occur. Will it be happening fast enough globally? Time will tell. Certainly, Canada is pulling its weight and more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chong.

We will now go to Mr. McDonald for five minutes or less.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know it is a bit different for you to be giving me time. Normally, I'm giving you time in committee.

I want to go back to Mr. Seeback's point about the definition of “clean energy”. I know the people here from ECCC say they don't have a definition for it. Perhaps they could go back, ask the minister for a definition of “clean energy” and provide that to the committee, so we can look at it and see what it actually means.

Also, I have a question on that. It was mentioned that $200 million was announced at COP Montreal. Could you tell me what that money is being used for?

[Sandra McCardell]

Mr. Chair, the $200 million followed on the COP in Montreal. It was the global biodiversity framework fund we contributed to, a few months later.

I'm going to turn to my colleague responsible for biodiversity, who is Kelly.

[Kelly Torck]

Thank you.

In fact, at COP15, $350 million was announced for Canada to contribute to an international biodiversity program that will support developing countries in advancing implementation of the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework. As was noted, $200 million of that was announced in August as the first contribution to a new global biodiversity framework fund being established under the global environment facility. Canada was the first contributor. That is now an operational fund. There were a couple of additional donors who have now put it near the mark of $200 million U.S., allowing it to be operational. That will start to disburse funds, hopefully, sometime next year as it gets operational.

In addition to that, the remaining funding will also be identified. It is managed by Global Affairs Canada, which looks at projects that will support objectives around biodiversity, conservation and sustainable use, very much in line with meeting the objectives of the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework. That funding will start to flow next fiscal year, starting in April at the earliest. It's a two-year funding contribution that will contribute directly to outcomes and results on biodiversity in developing countries.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Is that in the form of a loan or a grant?

[Kelly Torck]

It's grants.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you.

I will go now to the illegal, unreported and unregulated fisheries, a very important topic in Atlantic Canada.

I noticed there was an Indo-Pacific outcome, or a trip or vessel mission that was done. What is being done in Atlantic Canada to curb IUU fishing? It seems to be a large problem. I'm hearing in the shellfish industry that it is massive. It is turning into a cash business versus reporting catches and claiming them as earnings and whatnot. It's a huge problem in Atlantic Canada right now.

What are we doing to get a handle on that and to get that kind of activity negated?

[Brent Napier]

Thank you for the excellent question, Mr. Chair.

I'd mention, of course, learning from innovation and tech. Under the Indo-Pacific strategy, we will, obviously, be able to use and learn some of those valuable lessons. Our 500-strong fishery officer cadre, of course, works regularly to enforce this through a 500-strong vessel program, the support of the Coast Guard and the support of third party monitoring and intelligence.

Absolutely, compliance is a concern. CNP and the department take it quite seriously. We are ensuring we have the proper resources to address those issues.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you for that.

I understand there's a lot of cash being used in that particular type of transaction, so you may never catch anyone willing to report it. No one may get caught. Once they get it onshore, they have the ability to sell it for cash. Again, that's for another day, I guess—enforcement figuring out a way to do that.

I think those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chair. If somebody else on this side wants to use the remaining time, they are more than welcome.

How much time is left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

You have 30 seconds.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Okay. I'm very generous today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Yes, you are.

Does anybody want now 20 seconds? All right. It's going, going, gone.

We will now go to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before the publication of Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy, Quebec published its own strategy in a document that summarized its ambitions. Quebec committed to being present in the region as a green economy and expressed its desire to promote the sharing of sustainable development expertise.

Is the federal government aware of the contribution that the governments of the provinces, territories and municipalities can make in deploying Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy, when it comes to the environment in particular?

[Sandra McCardell]

Mr. Chair, we are absolutely conscious that the effort to address the global environment.... We talk about a global effort, and all the effort begins at home, really. We can't expect to work well with countries abroad if we can't co-operate with our provincial, territorial and municipal governments here.

I referred to the COP before, and maybe I'll use that as an example. We do have, in the case of Quebec, a very large delegation that will be part of Canada's delegation there. There are good channels of co-operation and communication that have opened with all of the provinces and territories that will be participating. Not later than last week, the deputy minister of environment engaged all of his deputy minister colleagues to have that open dialogue to explain our priorities and to ask them what their priorities were. What I would say is that this is an effort that needs to be whole-of-Canada, whole-of-society, and Quebec has a strong role to play in that.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Do I still have a bit of speaking time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

You have one minute.