Canada-China Relations Committee on April 8th, 2024

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Can you tell us why Dr. Matthew Gilmour suddenly resigned eight weeks into a global pandemic in May 2020 and why Tina Namiesniowski, the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada, suddenly resigned on a Friday afternoon in September 2020?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I don't know that I'm in a position to comment on that.

Madam Jeffrey.

[Heather Jeffrey]

I would say that for both of them, it's not really appropriate for us to comment. I think they both reflected that they resigned for personal reasons not associated with this issue.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Not associated with this issue at all....

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'm not privy to their reasons, but that was what—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

You know that they resigned for personal reasons. That's what you're telling us.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Perhaps I can respond. I think one of the challenges—and I got into it earlier—is that anytime we're talking about information with respect to an employee—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I know what you're going to say, Minister.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—we have to be very careful.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

With respect, you are wrong on that. The Privacy Act exempts parliamentary committees and other judicial proceedings from the terms of the Privacy Act. That's stated in the opening clauses of that act, which is an act of Parliament. We are exempt from the provisions of the Privacy Act and we're asking questions in respect of employees of the Government of Canada. We went through that in the previous Parliament on this very committee, actually, when we were asking for these documents.

If you don't know the reasons why they resigned, that's fine. I'm just asking the questions. I take it that you don't—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Madam Jeffrey responded to the fullest extent that I could have provided as an answer.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Is there any collaboration between the national microbiology laboratory in Winnipeg and entities in the PRC presently?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

No.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Are there any scientists working for the Government of Canada who are participating in the thousand talents program?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I would refer to Madam Jeffrey to make sure that I'm not....

[Heather Jeffrey]

This case is the only one that I'm aware of where our scientists were participating in this program, and I'd refer you to our security services for information. This was an undeclared collaboration—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

That's right; you're correct. The Government of Canada stumbled upon it.

Has there been a review or a proactive request on the part of management within the Government of Canada to ensure that all government scientists are complying with the policies of the government in declaring their participation in the thousand talents program?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Yes, and I think it's deeply unfortunate. Again, these are Canadian citizens. They were long-time employees and well-published, eminent scientists, known well throughout North America, who lied to the Public Health Agency. That changed things materially, so at that point in time, you had to ask questions and dig into people's backgrounds in a way that would have been seen as invasive and inappropriate before.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Just to clarify, there is no collaboration presently going on between the national microbiology laboratory in Winnipeg and entities and individuals in the People's Republic of China?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

That is correct.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I would say, just further to the other point, that there's a requirement, and there always has been a requirement, to declare any affiliations or outside work. That's one of the reasons these people were fired. They lied about that.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes, agreed. Thank you.

I have a question about non-Canadian citizens. The documents that we received revealed that non-Canadian citizens, specifically PRC nationals, were given access to the lab.

My first question is, who in the Health Canada or in the Public Health Agency of Canada is responsible for granting security clearances at the NML in Winnipeg?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I'll go to Madam Jeffrey.

[Heather Jeffrey]

The security screening process begins with reliability status checks that are conducted by the security department of the agency. They are then referred to the RCMP and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service for secret clearances.