Evidence of meeting #38 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was policies.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heather Jeffrey  President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Nadine Huggins  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Security Officer, Corporate Services Branch, Department of Health
Guillaume Poliquin  Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
Stephen Lucas  Deputy Minister, Department of Health

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the Canada–People's Republic of China Relationship.

Pursuant to the order of reference of May 16, 2022, the committee is meeting on its study of the Canada–People's Republic of China Relations.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. If you are participating by video conference, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mic. Please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen—it's that little globe icon—of floor audio, English or French. Those in the room, of course, can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members in the room, if you wish to speak, raise your hand. Of course, we have a speaking order, so I think that's going to be okay. Members on Zoom and especially our witnesses, if there is something that you would like to add to the discussion, please use the “raise hand” function so that we can recognize you. It quite often happens that we're asking questions of one person and somebody else has something very valuable to add, so use that “raise hand” function as you will in order to draw the attention of the chair and the clerk. We'll try to do our best to keep the speaking order as tight as possible.

As per the motion adopted on March 26, 2024, we're hearing testimony in relation to matters revealed in the Winnipeg lab documents.

Looking at our roster here, around the table, I want to welcome Ms. Idlout in place of Ms. McPherson, Mr. Cooper for Ms. Lantsman, Dr. Ellis for MP Seeback, Mr. Iacono for MP Oliphant, and MP Villemure for MP Bergeron.

Welcome to all of you.

From the Department of Health, we have Dr. Stephen Lucas, deputy minister, by video conference; and Nadine Huggins, assistant deputy minister and chief security officer, corporate services branch. From the Public Health Agency of Canada, we have Heather Jeffrey, president; Dr. Guillaume Poliquin, vice-president, national microbiology laboratory, by video conference; and Donald Sheppard, vice-president, infectious diseases and vaccination programs branch, by video conference.

I understand that Ms. Jeffrey is the one with an opening statement.

Ms. Jeffrey, the floor is yours for up to five minutes.

1 p.m.

Heather Jeffrey President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to appear before the committee today to discuss the documents tabled in Parliament on February 28 related to the termination of two scientists at the national microbiology laboratory in 2021.

This is a very important discussion. The mandate of the Public Health Agency is to promote and protect the health of Canadians, and the national microbiology lab is an essential tool in that work. During the COVID pandemic, the work of the lab in rapidly developing diagnostic tests, genomic sequencing, waste-water surveillance, modelling and research into medical countermeasures was critical to Canada's response then and also to our ability to face future health threats.

The Public Health Agency of Canada takes its accountability to Parliament and to Canadians very seriously. The agency has fully supported the work of a panel of arbiters in their deliberations to review the redactions in the package of documents tabled by the Minister of Health.

Every day our employees work with integrity to protect and promote the health of Canadians. We not only expect but also require our employees to abide by the code of conduct, as well as the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Sector.

As the committee has heard from previous witnesses, the global threat environment is constantly evolving. Canada's excellence in research science is underpinned by collaboration. However, we know that science is also of interest to actors seeking economic and technological advantage.

Since these events took place, our security posture and policies have been strengthened and adapted. This cannot be a static effort. Processes have been put in place to ensure that our posture is continually reassessed, in line with the evolving risks, in order to ensure that we remain fully prepared to address them, not only now but also in the future.

The package of documents tabled in Parliament reflects the results of an administrative investigation initiated in 2019 into the activities and subsequent termination of employment of two scientists at PHAC's National Microbiology Lab. At that time, research security concerns were also referred to the appropriate law enforcement authorities for investigation.

The investigation showed that the two individuals clearly failed to disclose and, in fact, took steps to conceal important information about their activities and affiliations from their employer, including their work with China. Their failure to follow security protocols and their failure to disclose their collaborations led to their suspension, the revocation of their security clearances and, ultimately, their dismissal. As of January 20, 2021, the two scientists were no longer employed by the Public Health Agency.

The NML has always operated as a secured facility. However, the administrative investigation initiated in 2019 highlighted that the policies and procedures in place at the time needed to be further strengthened, along with measures to ensure compliance and mitigate the risks posed by the current threat environment.

In response, the Public Health Agency of Canada has invested significant time and attention to ensure research and science policies have a renewed focus on security.

Specific physical, personnel, cyber and operational security measures have been updated, while also galvanizing an institutional culture that recognizes the responsibility to ensure full awareness and implementation of these measures in light of the important work of the NML and the ever-shifting threat landscape. This is consistent with efforts across the Government of Canada to support innovation and research while also protecting national security. The development by Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada of national security guidelines for research partnerships and identification of sensitive research areas are recent examples of this work.

PHAC complies fully with biosecurity regulations, the Human Pathogens and Toxins Act and the transportation of dangerous goods program, and works closely with regulatory bodies to ensure ongoing compliance. All international collaborations require review from a security perspective, and governance is in place to vet and approve new collaborations. This includes the mandatory use of material transfer agreements as well as formal agreements to structure collaborations—such as collaborative research agreements—and a strengthened policy on affiliations with academic, research and health care organizations as part of a suite of additional scientific integrity policies.

PHAC has established clear and regular training and communication on security and employee accountabilities.

The National Microbiology Lab has a renewed, proactive security posture that has reinforced the physical security of the building. Screening measures are strictly enforced for all staff and external visitors, including the requirement for visitors to be accompanied at all times and without exception.

The processes and policies that are in place will continue to be evaluated and enhanced with a view to continuously protecting the confidence and trust of Canadians in our work.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Thank you very much, Ms. Jeffrey.

I understand that we have a technical issue with one of the monitors in the room, so we're going to suspend for a moment. It has to be unplugged and plugged back in again. That works for a lot of things, and hopefully it will work this time. We are suspended for a minute.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

We're back in session.

We begin with our first round of questions. MP Chong, you have six minutes.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing again in front of our committee, Ms. Jeffrey.

Reports some time ago suggested that Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng could sue the Government of Canada, so my first question is, can you confirm that there are no legal proceedings that have been initiated by either Drs. Qiu or Cheng against the Government of Canada?

1:10 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

I'm in a position to confirm that they filed a complaint with the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency with regard to the suspension of their clearances.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

To your knowledge, is that the extent of any proceedings they have initiated?

1:10 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

As far as I'm aware....

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Okay. Thank you.

One of the things we're trying to understand at the committee is why it took 10 months for the lab to be secured and 10 months between the discovery of a patent improperly registered in the People's Republic of China and July 5, 2019, when the two scientists were escorted out of the lab. My questions are framed in that light, trying to understand why it took 10 months, so my first question is, when did the Minister of Health and her office first become aware of the national security breaches at the lab?

1:10 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

My understanding is that the Minister of Health was briefed at different junctures in the investigation, so as to be informed of decisions that were being taken by the deputy head of the agency in line with the administrative investigations—as examples, in June 2019 on the results of the fact-finding investigation, in August 2020 on the suspension of the employees, and in January 2021 on their firing.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Were the minister's office or the minister made aware before June 2019?

1:10 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

My understanding is that they were briefed periodically. I don't have specific dates.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Can you get back to the committee and let us know when the minister and her office were first made aware of this issue at the lab?

1:10 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

Yes, we will look back at the records and—

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you.

When did the president of the agency, your predecessor, first become aware of these national security breaches at the lab?

1:10 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

My understanding is that the initial briefings led to some identification by the security branch of the health portfolio and that the opening of the fact-finding investigation was subsequently authorized. I don't have the specific date that the president was briefed on this, but the security branch did launch, with the president of the agency, that fact-finding investigation in December 2018.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

The reason I ask this, Madam Jeffrey, is that the role of the president, the responsibilities of the president and the authorities of the president are to grant security clearances and oversee the classification of employees and the access of those employees to the lab. Could you let the clerk of the committee know when the president first became aware of these breaches? It's material to that person's responsibility to ensure that security clearances are appropriate at the lab.

The president of PHAC exited her role as president of PHAC on February 27, 2019. A new deputy head was not appointed until May 6 of that year, so there was a period of about 10 weeks in which there was no president of PHAC.

My first question is this: Was there an interim or an acting president of PHAC during that period, from the end of February to the beginning of May 2019?

1:15 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

As is normal, our interim president would be appointed with delegation during that period.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

What was that role? Was it an ADM, or was it a director general? Who was the acting president during that period?

1:15 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

The acting president during that period was the chief public health officer.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Did the chief public health officer have the delegated authority over security clearances for the lab?

1:15 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

The policy on delegation resides with the deputy head; however, the approval of individual clearances is delegated to the chief security officer of the agency.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

The delegation to the chief security officer wasn't just for that interregnum; it's generally delegated at all times.

1:15 p.m.

President, Public Health Agency of Canada

Heather Jeffrey

Yes, given the volume and the size of the agency, the day-to-day decision-making on security clearances resides with the chief security officer.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

When did the chief security officer first become aware of the national security issues at the lab?