Canada-China Relations Committee on April 19th, 2024

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Forgive me for interrupting you at times, but I want to get to the end of my questions.

You've put policies in place since then. However, if I understand correctly, the policies that were already in place weren't followed. Was it a lack of supervision, a lack of oversight or a lack of accountability?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I would say we've significantly enhanced our policies, because we are always looking for ways to detect and respond to such cases as early as possible, as well as to keep pace with evolving threats.

In this case, employees were taking active steps to hide their activities and, indeed, made false declarations to the officials throughout their investigation. It was only through the tools available to our security, intelligence and public safety institutions, under their governance and acts, that we were able to uncover the evidence that allowed us to proceed.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

I'm going to pick up on the question my colleague asked you earlier, if I may. He asked you whether the two scientists were Canadian citizens or agents of the Chinese Communist Party.

I'd like to ask you the following question: Could they have been Canadian citizens and agents of the Chinese Communist Party?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes, Mr. Chair. In this case, these were indeed Canadian citizens and eminent scientists. However, the investigation shows—and our Canadian Security Intelligence Service colleagues brought forward evidence on this—that they were working on undeclared collaborations with the institute in China. For this reason, they were terminated.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Did the investigations lead to the conclusion that they were agents of the Chinese Communist Party, members of the Chinese military?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The investigations brought forward, including the reports that were tabled in Parliament from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, showed they were engaged in discussions with the thousand talents program in China and other talent programs that were incompatible with their status at the lab, and that they lied to cover these activities.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So if we cut through the metaphors, we can understand that the answer is yes, correct?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Again, I think the documents speak for themselves in terms of the activities they outlined that the scientists engaged in that were undeclared.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

When you first became aware of the problem, you asked an outside firm, Security Consulting, to conduct an investigation. Why was the private sector directly involved, and not CSIS, for example, which conducted a second investigation?

Why didn't you turn to our intelligence service rather than an outside firm?

[Heather Jeffrey]

In this case, Mr. Chair, we pursued a number of different avenues in parallel.

Initially, it was the security branch of the health portfolio that conducted some initial fact-finding, for example, uncovering the patent in September 2018 that launched the subsequent investigations.

There are areas of the investigation that are administrative in nature. At the same time, our national security counterparts were notified and began their own parallel investigations. However, it is standard practice to ensure the independence of the investigation and full dedicated focus on it to contract with external agencies who have the required expertise to do so, but I would underline that this was in parallel to national security and law enforcement efforts.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

How was Presidia Security Consulting chosen? What were the criteria?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'll maybe turn to our chief security officer to respond to that question.

[Nadine Huggins, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Security Officer, Corporate Services Branch, Department of Health]

Normally, there is a standing offer that we rely on for these types of investigations of an administrative nature.

I can certainly come back to the committee with the details around how that particular contract was awarded.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I would appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Ms. Huggins.

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

We'll now go to Ms. Idlout for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq. It's a pleasure to be here.

It's quite concerning as well to hear that the government did not enforce measures or protocols to keep Canadian research and intellectual property secure.

One of my immediate questions is, when these measures or protocols were not enforced by the government, who was it that was not enforcing these measures or protocols?

[Heather Jeffrey]

In this case, there was intellectual property at play. This was the patent that was initially identified at the time. As evidenced in the documents, there were different discussions about whether the intellectual property in question was indeed proprietary or would have been more broadly available. The investigation, however, uncovered evidence of other collaborations that were under way that were undeclared.

The protocols and procedures around the requirements for approving international collaboration agreements were subsequently reinforced. The issues relating to the definition of what constitutes intellectual property have also been reinforced through awareness campaigns and underlined by the management of that office, which has been centralized and strengthened.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik.

How often does the agency meet with CSIS or other relevant security agencies to improve the operational security of Canada's research facilities?

[Heather Jeffrey]

At the time of these events, my understanding is that quarterly briefings were taking place with different research institutions, of which the national microbiology lab was one. I would say that in the intervening years, our relationship has become even closer.

The expanded activities of the agency in response to the global pandemic, the importance of the intellectual property and the science related to our vaccines, and indeed many areas of health research require very close collaboration, which has been reflected in the recently launched ISED research security partnership policy. This focuses on the kinds of scientific co-operation that occur throughout the Canadian research community, not only within the Government of Canada or the Public Health Agency, but across the country.

These are the risks and the important scientific value that need to be protected across the country, not only within the labs of the Public Health Agency.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

You mentioned in a previous response some of the policies that have changed.

I wonder if you could share with us what has been done over the last five years to improve the resilience of departmental activities from foreign interference.

[Heather Jeffrey]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the most important activities that have taken place are awareness, employee communications and engagement. Indeed, it was an awareness briefing that raised the risk of these particular cases.

There's the mandatory training and the emphasis on security responsibilities for all of our staff, no matter where they work and at what level, in addition to the physical and, of course, cybersecurity posture that has been enhanced. Both the hardware and the software of how we deal with security have been fundamentally strengthened and improved.

The work of committees like this one is very important in continuing to raise that awareness. We're continuing to adapt our procedures as threats evolve, in line with our consultations with our law enforcement and security counterparts.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

What could agencies like yours do? What could you do better to report national security incidents to parliamentarians?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I think there have been a number of structures set up to look at national security issues—the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians is an example—but also, in this case, the ad hoc committee structure that was struck and the panel of arbiters used a number of different techniques to ensure that information related to national security could be divulged to the maximum extent possible while still protecting what is highly sensitive information. For example, the technique of summarizing key national security information so as not to reveal sensitive information about sources and other issues has been effective in allowing content to be released in some cases while protecting the methods and sources.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We'll now go to Mr. Cooper for five minutes.