Canada-China Relations Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

Unfortunately, I think you're right: Canada's importance internationally has indeed diminished. I think it started when the Harper government was in power and has continued under Mr. Trudeau's government, unfortunately.

It's important to understand that in the current context, international issues are closely linked to domestic issues. If we don't invest enough internationally, it can come back to haunt us.

In the past, Canada's diplomacy was very active, which was an added value, particularly appreciated by Washington. We were able to interpret the views of developing countries through our development assistance program, and we had a lot of influence in some African and Asian countries as well.

The fact that we haven't been invited to join the AUKUS alliance or other recently created forums may indicate that we're paying the price after years of neglect.

From a defence perspective, Canada clearly needs to invest more, particularly in the Canadian Arctic. Again, this has to be linked to China, which is very interested in the Arctic because of the fishery and mineral resources there. I would say that we are under‑equipped. Increasing our investments would be a way to demonstrate to NATO that we are serious about defending not only the North American continent, but that organization as well.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

At the Standing Committee on National Defence, on which I also sit, we are discussing Arctic security. The territory to be protected is huge, and its effective occupation is quite difficult.

However, I would point out that, politically, the United States doesn't even consider the Northwest Passage to be part of Canadian territorial waters.

Is there any work to be done with our allies to politically protect this passage, which may be used even more in the future, especially by science-based vessels, but also by Chinese military vessels?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

There has already been a Chinese ship in the Northwest Passage.

Having said that, I don't think this passage is as interesting as the one through the north. China understands that it's more difficult to navigate the Northwest Passage. Anyway, going through the north is more direct. It takes less time to get to Europe, provided you can count on the contribution of Russian icebreakers, which are very active.

A global approach to the Arctic is required. We talk about occupying the territory, but if we aren't there, it's difficult to proclaim our sovereignty and protect territorial integrity. There has to be a physical presence. We have to have planes that fly over the Arctic regularly. We must remember that global warming will make certain resources, such as fish, increasingly available and moving north. We need to be concerned about that, and we need to work with our friends and allies in the Arctic Council.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

We are currently debating a private member’s bill in the House, Bill C‑281, which deals with media that could be banned or denied a licence to operate in Canada if they are owned by governments of countries that commit genocide. In this regard, by the way, Canada has yet to recognize the genocide against Uighurs.

You talk about the influence of countries around the world. Is media influence something that should be given more attention?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

Yes, absolutely.

If I'd had the opportunity to finish my speech, I would have told you that we must fight Chinese interference at all costs, not only within the Chinese community in Canada, but also in our institutions, including our political institutions.

The Chinese use all sorts of ways to create interference. They take advantage of the fact that we are an open society. There are Chinese dailies that run full-page ads. They're given access to our media. But, of course, there is no reciprocity. I think that we have to be much more vigilant in this regard.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Now we move to Ms. Kwan, for six minutes or less.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their presentations.

I'd like to build on that response from Mr. Saint-Jacques.

You mentioned needing to counter the issue of influence, which is proliferating in many spheres in our communities across the country. Can you give me some specific examples of measures Canada should take?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

We have to start by paying a lot more attention to what is said on Chinese social media. I was struck at the start of the Meng Wanzhou crisis. I gave many interviews to Canadian media that publish in Mandarin. The questions they were asking me were straight from Beijing. They didn't know what the position of the Canadian government was. They didn't understand it. They were just reflecting the views expressed in Beijing. For that, we have to make a lot more effort.

We also have to look at the experience of other countries, like Australia. It has adopted four laws to try to counter foreign influence in its society and political system. That would be a good point from which to start.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

Bringing the issue closer to home, in Canada, veteran journalist Victor Ho was put on the wanted list by China. The application of its national security law is spreading. We have always known it, because that's what the Chinese said they would do. They would apply that law not just in Hong Kong or China, but globally. Mr. Ho is the first Canadian who has been targeted in that way.

What do you think the Canadian government should do to counter this? It's for the protection of all Canadians as well.

I would ask this question to both of the witnesses. Maybe I can have Mr. Saint-Jacques answer that question, and then we'll go to Dr. Wright.

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

I agree entirely with you. I think the Canadian government should speak very forcefully on this subject to say that it will oppose any effort by China to use this national security law to try to get people. What we have to understand is, in fact, that if Canadians fall under...it's easy to be found guilty. I would be found guilty. I have been very critical of China.

What I fear is that China may want to use its extradition treaties with other countries. If I ever go to visit one of those countries, they could request that I be arrested and extradited to China because I've been critical of China. I think the government has to speak out on this. This is another example of where we have to work with our allies to develop a common position to push back on China.

[Dr. David Curtis Wright]

My instinct on looking at questions like this is to take a longer-term view, like historians do over decades.

As far as Chinese media is concerned, I read some of those newspapers, and sometimes it's disturbing. These are strangers in our land. Do they not really understand the way Canada works? However, those people are first generation. Their kids and their grandkids are going to wind up thinking very differently. A lot of the influence that we are so concerned about with Beijing pertains to one generation. Their kids and their grandkids are going to come around a lot more, and that's really how it's always been over the course of Chinese immigration to Canada.

As far as national security is concerned, I've read that law, and it does say that anywhere in the world, people who damage China's interest are subject to arrest. We often assume that will apply to Chinese citizens, but Mr. Ho is not a Chinese citizen; he's a Chinese Canadian. Will this eventually apply to non-Chinese people as well? I think maybe so. I don't see any impediment to that, and it's troubling.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

They are applying it to Victor Ho, and I am cognizant of the fact that not just I but a number of parliamentarians, in fact, would be in violation of the national security law, given our comments and our vote in the House on designating the treatment of the Uighurs as a genocide. We could all be subject to arrest and put on the wanted list, no less.

I'll set that aside for a minute, because I have much to say about that, but I want to get to the Taiwan question.

Given the threatening posture that's escalating with China towards Taiwan, from this perspective, what action do you think Canada should take to prepare itself with regard to this escalating tension, and what should we be doing with allied countries, Dr. Wright?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

I will ask for a fairly short answer. We're just about out of time.

[Dr. David Curtis Wright]

We should prepare ourselves for the possibility of a big, ugly and surprisingly strong conflict. That may be the price of standing up to Beijing on this. It's a price that we, as a democracy.... I don't see how we can not pay it, if it comes to it.

As far as what Canada should do, Canada should work closely with its allies. Canada punches above its weight in international relations, and I think some quiet backstage discussions with Chinese diplomats would work better than humiliating them publicly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Dr. Wright, and thank you, Ms. Kwan.

We'll now go to our second round.

Mr. Seeback, you have five minutes or less.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Saint-Jacques, you said that the ambassador has said that Canada must learn from its mistakes. What do you think the ambassador means by that, specifically?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

Well, you know, when I was in Beijing, very often I had discussions in which I was told that we were the lapdog of the United States. From the start of this sad episode with Ms. Meng Wanzhou and the two Michaels, they said that we should not have acceded to the extradition request. They showed total disregard for how extradition requests work, and they just assumed that things could work in Canada as they do in China, where the prime minister picks up the phone and speaks with the judge and says to throw this case away and just return the person.

To be frank with you, I don't think the Chinese have a very high opinion of Canadian politicians right now, and this is unfortunate, taking into account all the efforts that were made by various Canadian governments over the last 40 years to help China become a modern country. We helped them to prepare to join the World Trade Organization. We helped them to develop their dairy industry. We helped them to develop their hydroelectricity. All this has disappeared since the arrest of Ms. Meng Wanzhou.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I've read a report from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute on coercive diplomacy. Incidents of coercive diplomacy really seem to have skyrocketed—at least according to this report—from around 15 in 2016 to close to 60 by 2019. Coercive diplomacy can include all kinds of things: arbitrary detention, restrictions on official travel, pressure on specific companies. This seems to be an increasingly worrying problem.

This is for both our witnesses today. Would you have any advice on how Canada should be dealing with coercive diplomacy with respect to China?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

It's very important to make the trade regime more reliable and predictable.

I was surprised, at the start of our latest problems with China, when they put a ban on our exports of canola. Why didn't we go immediately to the World Trade Organization to lodge a complaint? We have to use those mechanisms to push back on China.

I think we are also at the stage where.... As I said, a good first step was the adoption of this declaration to try to prevent hostage-taking in state-to-state relations.

On the trade side, we are at a point where we have to work with allies to try to develop common positions. To give you an example, there are very few countries that export barley, canola, soy or wheat to China. The next time China wants to impose punitive sanctions on Australia, through its barley, Canada and the U.S. should agree they will not increase their exports above their historical share of the Chinese market. That would immediately send a message to China that it no longer has the ability to divide us.

In fact, the EU is in the process of adopting a new anti-coercion instrument. The bipartisan Countering China Economic Coercion Act has been introduced in the U.S. Congress. I think we have to look at concrete examples like this to push back on China.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

We have a bit of time left, Mr. Wright.

[Dr. David Curtis Wright]

China craves positive public relations, internationally, so creative embarrassment with other allies will work, to some extent, even if China denies that it will.

Diplomatic démarches can work. Quick reprisals for trade coercion should be engaged. China says that politics should not have anything to do with trade, but the canola decision in Alberta is very much politics interfering with trade.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Dr. Wright, and thank you, Mr. Seeback.

We now go to Madame Normandin for two and a half minutes or less.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

A University of Ottawa task force recommended that Canada establish a national counter foreign interference coordinator. As I understand it, that exists in Australia now. However, this could be problematic since, for example, Canada doesn't have a central point for coordinating the interference initiatives of the various departments.

Mr. Saint‑Jacques, I'd like to hear from you on the relevance of having this kind of position in Canada. Would it be useful or even necessary?

Dr. Wright, you'd be welcome to jump in if there's any time left.

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

That's an extremely important issue. I see a lot of areas where China is intervening illegally. As I said earlier, this country is taking advantage of the openness of our systems, but it's also figured out how to use our social media, like Twitter, Facebook and Linkedln, to spread misinformation and try to interfere in our political systems.

This is an issue that should involve many departments, and we need to start by being much more vigilant and agreeing that there's a problem. Then we need to look at how we can counter it. Can technology be used? I don't know if a national coordinator position would be helpful. Of course, it would send a message that this is an important issue for the government.

That said, if you look at China's cyber-activities, it's engaged in intellectual property theft, interference in our political systems, and attacks on Canada's freedom of speech and democratic system. So we need to look at this situation carefully. I hope that the task force established at the University of Ottawa to look at these issues will provide recommendations that will be of interest to the government.