Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I'm fond of reminding people that former president Ma, as mayor of Taipei, was the first Asian mayor to establish a gay pride festival.

It's something we value in Canada, so we will encourage that and will find ways to do that. I never mind irking China, but protecting Taiwan at the same time would be the balance that we would try to find there.

I'm also glad you mentioned Mitchell Sharp, my first political mentor. I think that concept of not accepting the concept that China holds about Taiwan, but finding ways to challenge it appropriately, would be the other thing.

With respect to the peaceful status quo, do you think we have a peaceful status quo? Do we have an unpeaceful status quo? Or do we have a dangerously precarious status quo?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

I think we have a very precarious peace right now.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It's a precarious peace.

[Dr. Scott Simon]

Yes. I say that because peace is the absence of war. There are, of course, grey-zone tactics going on just short of war. I think those exercises in August were a good example of that. I think they are trying to get the world accustomed to that.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

What about the placing of a Canadian frigate through the strait at that time?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

Yes. I think that's a signal to China that we're very concerned.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

We did that.

[Dr. Scott Simon]

Yes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much, Mr. Oliphant.

We will now go to Mr. Bergeron for six minutes or less.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Simon, my questions will be along the same lines as those of my colleague Mr. Oliphant.

Last February, the director general for North Asia at Global Affairs Canada, Mr. Weldon Epp, appeared before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. He reiterated Canada's position that Canada does not support China's claims to Taiwan, but neither does it dispute them. It's all a matter of nuance, but you said a few moments ago that you don't dispute them, but you've never accepted them.

In your mind, what is the difference between not disputing China's claims on Taiwan and not accepting them?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

In my opinion, there is a big difference between the two.

In order to build relations with China, China has asked for recognition that Taiwan is an integral part of China. Mr. Mitchell Sharp said this was impossible, because Taiwan is not part of China.

The fact that China is asking Canada to recognize this is already evidence. China has not asked Canada to recognize that Shandong is part of China and Canada has not asked China to recognize that Alberta is part of Canada.

If one does not dispute the claims, it is because one wants to have a relationship with China. If one does not accept the recommendations, it is because it is an established fact that Taiwan is not part of China. So one cannot support China's position.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I am sorry to insist, but this seems to me extremely important.

When one does not accept a state of affairs, is it not, de facto, a way of challenging that state of affairs?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

I think that's a very diplomatic formula.

This very clearly challenges China's claim that Taiwan belongs to the People's Republic of China. This diplomatic convention was necessary, in 1970, to have a diplomatic relationship with China.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

If I understand what you are telling us correctly, in effect, Canada is challenging China's claims on Taiwan, but pretending not to.

[Dr. Scott Simon]

Yes, this is fiction. Even the Quebec Superior Court, about 18 years ago, in François Parent's action against Singapore Airlines Limited, the Civil Aeronautics Administration of Taiwan, said that it was diplomatic fiction and that the courts were not required to maintain it.

Our entire society does not need to maintain it.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

What you are telling us is very interesting, once again, Mr. Simon.

In what way did the Quebec Superior Court challenge this fiction?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

The court said it only applied to this very particular case, because a plane had crashed at Taipei airport. Mr. François Parent had sued the Taiwan Civil Aeronautics Administration.

The Quebec Superior Court was obliged to decide whether Taiwan was a state or not. It did in fact decide and hold that, in this context, Taiwan was a state.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

That's very interesting.

Last October, you published an article entitled “Navigating Canada-Taiwan Relations — Why Canada needs a renewed strategy to help safeguard peace in the Taiwan Strait”. In it, you call for Canada to update its strategy towards Taiwan, including direct discussions between Canadian and Taiwanese government officials and former diplomats, academics and think tanks.

As my colleague said, Parliament can also strengthen its role, perhaps by following Japan's example and initiating a bilateral dialogue on Taiwan's security.

How can Japan's example inspire Canada?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

I think the relationship between Japan and Taiwan could inspire Canada in many ways.

In this report, I gave an example of a dialogue held between political parties on security and defence. It is not a state-to-state dialogue, between departments of Defence and so on, but between the parties in power. So it would be possible to start such a process between the Liberal Party and the Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan. This is the proposed model.

There is one other thing I would like to add. When Ms. Sgro went to Taiwan with the delegation, there was a parade. The members of the Japanese Parliament participated in this parade to celebrate the National Day of the Republic of China in Taiwan. So it was quite public. They contributed to the parade.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Did Canadian parliamentarians participate in the parade?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

They were spectators.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Are you suggesting that Canadian parliamentarians should have taken part in the parade?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

I think it might be a good idea to do this in the future.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

All right. Let me know if...