Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Simon, thank you for being with us this evening. Our discussions are very interesting.

Some of the questions have already been asked by my colleagues, but your comments on indigenous rights have piqued my interest. In fact, I think you are doing some research on this topic.

Earlier, I read a note that said some indigenous groups were excluded from the Taiwan process.

Are there any similarities between what the indigenous peoples of Canada have experienced and what the people of Taiwan are experiencing? What is the big problem that you see with that?

This is an interesting topic.

[Dr. Scott Simon]

I just finished a book on this issue. It's the second book I've written on indigenous peoples.

There are indeed some similarities in our histories, including the loss of territory and the difficulty indigenous peoples have in gaining recognition for their sovereignty. Many of the issues are very similar.

In some respects, I think Taiwan scores higher than Canada. For example, all indigenous communities in Taiwan have access to electricity and clean water, which is not the case in Canada.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

My question was also about the fact that some groups are excluded from the Council of Indigenous Peoples. If I am not mistaken, there are 10 or 12 groups.

Why are these groups excluded?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

There are permanent indigenous bodies at the UN. Taiwan is excluded from all UN bodies. In fact, this is in contradiction with the objective of a permanent forum on indigenous issues at the UN. Normally, indigenous peoples should have direct access to the UN, without interference from states. This principle is not respected in the case of Taiwan.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I see.

You also said that we should do everything we can to prevent conflict or war. What I'm very interested in in this committee is anything to do with our trade relations and our country's economy, including the global economy, which could suffer greatly.

What do you think would be the biggest threat to the Canadian economy, if a conflict arises between China and Taiwan?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

It would really be an economic disaster for Canada and for the world. If there were ever a conflict—I'm not even talking about an invasion—like an embargo against Taiwan, we would lose access to the port of Taiwan and China. It would block shipping, and we would risk losing our investments in China, and imports from Taiwan and China.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I see.

I think all members of the committee agree that human rights must be the top priority.

I often ask the witnesses the question: do you think, from an economic point of view, Canada can do without China as a trading partner eventually?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

China is a huge country, with a large population. We see that there is now a trend in China to disconnect from the global economy. It is China that is doing this, not the west.

China needs the whole world, and the whole world also needs China. In the long run, I think it is very important that China is integrated with the world.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

If you had any recommendations for this committee as to what Canada could do better or differently for Taiwan, what would those recommendations be?

Can you summarize that in one or two points?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

Canada needs to do more to support Taiwan, but with the co-operation of other states in the region. It could improve its relationship with Japan, because the Taiwan issue is very important to Japan. It should work more closely with Japan on issues related to peace and security in the region.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Simon.

By the way, I wanted to congratulate you on your excellent French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Now we'll go to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I support my colleague Mr. Cormier's comment.

I thank you very much, Mr. Simon, for expressing yourself and answering in impeccable French the questions that are put to you in the language of Molière.

I would like to return to the question of Japan.

We talk about a bilateral security dialogue. You mentioned the relations between political parties, but, in concrete terms, what does this bilateral security dialogue mean, and what results does it achieve?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

This bilateral dialogue has just begun in Japan. It is the beginning of a dialogue.

The most important effect is to highlight the situation in the region in public discourse. This demonstrates the importance of Japan with regard to the situation in the Taiwan Strait. It also involves Japanese islands right next to Taiwan.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In your opinion, what can results can we expect from this bilateral dialogue on the specific issue of security?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

This dialogue demonstrates to the world, and to China as well, that we are willing to work with Taiwan for its protection. The United States and Japan are certainly ahead of Canada, but I think Canada could also lead.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

What do you think Canada could do?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

It wouldn't necessarily be the same joint initiatives that we are already engaged in with Japan, but we could start with small initiatives. For example, we could do initiatives with the Coast Guard in collaboration with Haiti.

We could start by discussing small projects like that together.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In your opinion...

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Bergeron, I'm sorry, but you are out of time.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

We will have other opportunities.

Thank you, Mr. Simon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

The cleanup batter is at the plate. The winning run is on base.

Ms. McPherson, you have the final two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I always get to play that role, don't I, Mr. Chair?

I will finish by following up on some of the questions Mr. Bergeron was asking.

We know that the Indo-Pacific strategy is coming. We've been told that time and time again. I assume that it will come at some point.

What would you like to see in it? With regard to Taiwan, what would you say is a successful Indo-Pacific strategy for Taiwan when we do see it? What advice would you give, if you could, to our foreign minister?

[Dr. Scott Simon]

It's important to be very specific in it and say that we support peace and security in the Taiwan Strait and no unilateral aggression. I hope the Indo-Pacific strategy shows clear support for Taiwan.