Canadian Heritage Committee on March 14th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is to Mr. Morrison. Earlier, during your presentation, you mentioned that Mr. Rabinovitch had made a compromise at one point and had allowed for a 30-minute regional newscast.

Could you tell us more about this?

[Ian Morrison]

First, I'll just go back. Mr. Rabinovitch was appointed at the end of 1999. Shortly thereafter, the CRTC came down with its licences for CBC for the next seven years. He held a huge press conference in Ottawa, which was very well attended. I think Le Devoir had a cartoon about this, where he attacked the CRTC, and they called him “Rambo-binovitch” and had him with a machine gun, walking into the office of Françoise Bertrand. You may remember this, as I read your newspapers.

What happened after Mr. Rabinovitch got in was this. He was upset, in my understanding, at being instructed by the CRTC to do more regionally relevant programming. He was quoted in The Globe and Mail as saying, “I have a mandate from the Prime Minister”—meaning that Prime Minister Chrétien, who appointed him, had told him that he didn't have to do what the CRTC told him. So he decided he was going to take CBC English television out of the supper-hour news, which means that from 6 o'clock to 7 o'clock in Vancouver, you used to get--in fact, we've given you a year 2000.... The programming starts at 7 o'clock, so it won't do the job.

He announced that, and a lot of people were upset. We were upset, but more importantly, your committee was upset. I distinctly recall a crowded Commons committee room where Rabinovitch and his then vice-president, Harold Redekopp, were brought in, and they were perspiring at the end of three hours. I had to stand; there were no seats available. Mr. Lincoln was in charge, and with Andy Scott, who's one of your colleagues on this committee today, he went after Rabinovitch very hard.

So finally he went back to the board and then came back and said they would do 30 minutes of local programming and 30 minutes of national programming out of Vancouver, called Canada Now. It's that compromise that they have now cancelled, and they're going back to what existed when Rabinovitch arrived.

It's the failure of leadership, but it's a win for local programming.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Excellent.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much for your presentations and for your answers here today. I know everyone around the table has more questions, but we do have a presentation coming forward. We've allowed an extra 20 minutes, so I think we have to get ready for the next presentation.

Thank you very much for today.

We'll have a five-minute recess.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We welcome our next set of presenters. We're off schedule a bit, but we will give them some time because we can run the next session into the hour and a half we had scheduled for lunch.

I will go with the first presenter, who is from Music BC.

If you would, please go ahead, sir.

[Bob D'Eith, Executive Director, Music BC]

Thank you very much.

My name is Bob D'Eith. I'm the executive director of Music BC. We're a non-profit society that supports and promotes the spirit, development, and growth of the B.C. music community provincially, nationally, and internationally.

I'm also a music lawyer. I've been a music lawyer for 17 years. I'm on the national advisory board for FACTOR, the Foundation to Assist Canadian Talent on Recordings. I'm also a board member of CIRPA, the Canadian Independent Record Production Association. Amongst other things, I'm also a recording artist. Hopefully I bring an interesting perspective to the table today, and I'll try to keep my comments as brief as possible so that we can get to questions.

In terms of the mandate, one of the things that we feel is very important, obviously, is to have Canadian subject matter in CBC's mandate. But we really think it's very important and it's incumbent on CBC to stress world-class production first.

Without question, it's important to have Canadian subject matter. That's what happens with CBC news. It's world-class and world-respected. It's a unique Canadian perspective on the world. We don't have the same jingoistic flavour as the U.S. has with their network news. We have one of the best newscasts in the world.

That's why we have so many great comedians. We have a unique perspective. Anything we produce is uniquely Canadian, inherently. I think it's really important for CBC if they can recognize that you don't have to produce something that gets points on the mandate.

A good example might be Little Mosque on the Prairie, which gets a lot of points on the mandate. It's ethnic, it's the Prairies, and it's regional. It gets all these things, but I think CBC has to flip a bit and think more in terms of excellent production first that is Canadian. It's more about strategic planning.

This applies to music as well. My primary focus is on the music industry, not on other sides, so I'll try to focus on that.

The mandate of CBC should be developing and promoting Canadian recording artists, composers, and live performers, whether they're in an orchestra, a rock band, a jazz band, or whatever. Whatever genre they are, the fact that they're Canadian and producing music makes the music inherently Canadian itself. On multicultural, French-language, and aboriginal music, I obviously think CBC has to play a stronger role in making sure these art forms are expressed not only to Canada but to the world, because we have an incredible mosaic of music within Canada.

The music industry is challenged right now by digital technology. Digital technology has caused a massive contraction in the music industry in terms of the industry side. Retail stores are closing down. Major labels are losing billions of dollars. Right now we're in a position in which we're looking at major layoffs and major problems in the music industry, so we're in a transition. However, what has happened on the positive side is that the major labels have lost their stranglehold on the music industry, and that has given an opportunity for the independent community to grow.

The business model itself is changing, and the Internet is really driving that right now. While the majors are only reporting 5% of legitimate download sales, in some cases the independent sector is reporting that 50% to 60% of its sales are online. Terry McBride of Nettwerk Records is now saying that maybe only 15% of a record label's revenue should be from traditional sales.

In my report, I gave a press release that just came out from one of our local promoters. The whole thing was about MySpace and YouTube. There was nothing about anything else but the impact that was being made by the Internet.

What does all this mean to CBC? We've already seen cbc.ca, galaxie.ca, and of course, Radio 3. I would really encourage CBC to continue to enhance and develop the Internet presence, to create a community within this society, because right now we are seeing Canadian music going out all over the world on the Internet, and I think CBC could play a major role in that.

The challenge, I think, in listening to CBC Radio 3 is that it jumps around from folk to rock to everything. It's very hard to do that. Then they broadcast it on satellite radio, and I think the problem is that's not the way most people experience music. They don't jump around the way CBC Radio 3 is doing in terms of its broadcasts. If they are broadcasting on satellite radio through Sirius--I'll have some comments about that--I just think it's extremely important for CBC to continue developing online communities.

As for the traditional English radio, CBC Radio One and CBC Radio Two, in my report I printed out basic programming in a given week, and there's a clear emphasis, it seems, on classical and jazz music, which we support 100%, but I really believe that contemporary music, especially popular music, tends to be relegated to midnight, four in the morning, and other shows. It doesn't seem to be as much of a priority. I don't think just having it on the Internet on Radio 3 is enough. I think Radio 3 is only broadcast on Sirius satellite radio, and we don't think this is a sufficient commitment to all genres of Canadian contemporary music.

That brings up the CBC's involvement with Sirius radio. We definitely feel there are two points here: that CBC being involved with satellite radio really undermines the basic mandate of CBC. Satellite radio plays 95% American programming. There are a few Canadian channels on satellite radio, but Canadian music becomes ghettoized, in my opinion, and what happens there is that again the U.S. influence has dominated. I think satellite radio has really gone around the CRTC Cancon regulations. Of course it's been approved, but I don't think CBC should be involved in Sirius because of that.

The second thing is that the whole industry knew that satellite radio had a limited market potential. Huge amounts of money are being thrown out the window on satellite radio, and we don't feel that Canadian taxpayers should be involved in investing in satellite radio for the CBC.

One thing I thought I'd bring up in my report as well is that there seems to be this feeling that commercial radio can take care of genres that are on commercial radio. I've given a number of examples of commercial radio, and you'll see by some of the percentages that only 6.1% of all commercial radio is independent music. In fact, with indie rock it's only 1.7%; all the rest are major labels. Most artists out there are independent, and they're growing more and more. As the majors collapse, they're all becoming independent. We're seeing sometimes 2% of commercial radio supporting our budding recording artists. I think CBC needs to fill that gap more. I think it's very important to do that.

One of the things CBC could do is dovetail with Canada Council and FACTOR. We're putting millions of dollars into the music industry, so let's support them. Let's support FACTOR, let's support Canada Council, and let's do some programs around FACTOR and Canada Council. We're putting money into developing these artists; why don't we do something with CBC? Perhaps Radio Two could be involved with that in a more committed way.

Another point we'd like to make is that we really think the BBC is a wonderful model for the CBC to look at. I think I've given some examples of what the BBC director-general, Mark Thompson, has said with regard to music and their mandate. It's really interesting to see, with BBC, because the focus of their purpose and values, the way they set it out, is quality. They want to be a world leader. The word “British” only appears once on the entire page. BBC is distinctly British, but their focus is on quality first. They want to be a world leader in production.

CBC is known for some things--incredible news services, Hockey Night in Canada, documentaries--but I don't think the world sees it on the same level as the BBC. That is the challenge for CBC. I think it can be up there with BBC, as our Canadian artists are some of the best in the world.

As for BBC's support of music, they really embrace all genres throughout all of their programming. One thing that's really interesting is the way they weave music into the fabric of their productions. They really go out of their way to make sure British music is throughout all of their productions and is promoted in such a way.

Another thing the BBC does very effectively is digital services. Their multimedia marketing is excellent. We should really look at that model.

Another point is that on CBC television there isn't one program devoted to showcasing new Canadian musical works. This needs to change. BBC has weekly television series with live music, sometimes in prime time, sometimes late at night. It's a constant throughout BBC television programming.

I have a couple more points. First, on CBC records, I've tried very hard to find in the annual report any statistics on the financial success of CBC records. My understanding is that it's not a profitable business. If there were some statistics to go against that, I'd be happy to look at them. We have a very vibrant independent recording industry, and I don't think CBC should be subsidizing Canadian music in competition with independent labels. CBC should focus more on production and recording, and let the industry deal with the commerce of music.

Finally, I'd like to address the CBC and artists' rights. I talked with the Honourable Hedy Fry prior to this and I did not bring up copyright, but this is very important. One thing the CBC should never do is ask artists to waive their rights. A case in point is CBC Radio 3, which recently asked artists to waive their rights to receive royalties. It's our opinion that certainly with CBC this should never happen. We expect it from the commercial broadcasters, but we don't expect it from CBC.

I know there are a lot of things there. I'd like to thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to come here. We had only a week to prepare, but we did our best to put something together for you. If there are any questions on any of those topics, I would be very happy to answer them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that presentation.

I think we'll go to the next group now, after which we'll take questions for both presenters.

New Media BC, go ahead, please.

[Lynda Brown, President, New Media BC]

Thank you, and thank you for the opportunity to present this morning.

I'm Lynda Brown, the president of New Media BC. I'm joined by my colleagues Adam Gooch and Phillip Djwa.

We'd like to do a couple of things today. We want to show you some of our visual media and what's happening in Canada. We want to give you an overview of how the sector is growing in this country, because it's quite critical to this discussion. Then we'd like to give you some real-life examples with a small- to mid-sized enterprise that Phillip represents, and then discuss in some detail any questions you may pose.

First I'm going to show you a DVD, and then we're going to move into the formal part of the presentation.

[DVD Presentation]

So that's, in part, how our sector is seen by the rest of the world at this point: as a leader in digital entertainment production, which is one of the subsectors in digital media.

I'm just going to switch over to our PowerPoint presentation now so we can walk through an overview of the Canadian sector.

“Digital media” is really the term we're using these days. “New media” has become a little bit redundant. So when we talk about “new media”, we're really talking about “digital media”. They've become one and the same.

Nationally, we have agreed across the country that digital media falls into five dominant subsectors, and the six that are presented there. Generally we combine mobile content, digital film and animation, e-learning, web design--or what's called interactive design--and video games to represent the digital media industry. It's predominantly seen as the use of interactive digital content for the purposes of informing, entertaining, and educating. The term “interactive” is obviously very key to this definition and to the terminology of “digital media”.

Today—very briefly, because I know we're running short—we're going to give you a quick overview, look at some of our strengths, and tell you what we're working on as a national strategy. First of all, though, because we're all from Vancouver, we wanted to give you an idea of what's happening here.

Vancouver represents Canada's largest digital media cluster, with over 1,100 companies working in the region, generating about $2.1 billion. We're home to four out of the five world-leading game publishers. We have an over-25-year history in this sector. We also have some very prominent and internationally renowned e-learning tools, such as WebCT, and a strong reputation in the e-learning sector.

We have great strength in digital film and animation. Vancouver, as you may know, is the third largest North American production centre for film and television. The digital film and animation sector that we represent has definitely benefited from that. Now, with the merger of Rainmaker and Mainframe, we have the largest digital effects and animation studio in Canada, a world-recognized studio. We're launching a graduate program--the first of its kind, a master's degree in digital media--that will start in September of this year. We also have electronic arts largest studio in the world. It has 2,000 employees currently and is growing quickly.

We've been recognized internationally as a hub, a hot spot of digital media, right here in Vancouver. A very popular business magazine called Fast Company looked at the bohemian index to find clusters to watch. Vancouver, along with Montreal, was noted as being very prominent.

If we look at Canada overall, we have some very particular strengths. I think the first video showed you that we have huge and internationally highly recognized strengths in digital entertainment, but that's not all we're doing. We also are known for strength in new IP--or intellectual property--and original content production, and that's becoming increasingly key in this multi-billion-dollar market.

There is the emerging mobile factor. There is a growing market for the information and entertainment that you use on your BlackBerry and on your mobile phone. Canada is seen as leading some initiatives in this area.

If we look across Canada, we've got approximately 3,200 companies working in this sector, from coast to coast. We just completed a study called the Canadian Interactive Industry Profile, which goes into detail on this industry. I'd be happy to provide that after this presentation.

By and large, the industry across Canada is generating a significant amount of revenue, but I think it's important to note that the majority of our companies are still small to mid-sized enterprises, staffed at the under-20 or under-30 employees mark.

We have approximately 52,000 people working across Canada in this sector. Our friends in Montreal are also well recognized as a leading visual entertainment centre. And Toronto, of course, with its strength in film and television, has become the hot spot for convergent activities.

We're also seeing some very nice incubation programs out of Alberta and Manitoba, such as the Fortune Cat Games Studio, which is an investment program in original IT for game developers. That has been very successful and has been looked at internationally as a viable model.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I don't want to interrupt your presentation, but we want to make sure that this is relevant to our study on the CBC. Are we going to have that in your presentation? Is that going to come?

[Lynda Brown]

Yes. We're almost finished this part, but we thought it was important to tell you what's actually happening in digital media, because it does inform your discussion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay, thank you.

[Lynda Brown]

Thank you. I'll move it along.

One of our capabilities, as you can see, is that we are well known for having strength in both content development and original IT. A number of international companies have located here. We all know that Canada is a wonderful place in which to live and do business. If we look across the country, as I've touched on, we have a real hub in Montreal. We have some very progressive things happening in Manitoba and the prairie provinces. In Atlantic Canada, they have a small but growing cluster that has focused on some original IT, and also secondary and tertiary studios that are serving them well.

Just so you know where this workforce is coming from, you might be surprised to learn that we have close to 160 training programs that are producing the people who work in this sector. We are known for having a culture of innovation and storytelling—that's part of our heritage.

I'm just going to skip over the next part, which talks about the graduate program we're starting. New Media BC in particular, you might have heard, is leading a proposal that has been presented federally to establish Canada as a world centre in digital media, to build capacity in the industry across all levels. The discussion we're having today is very important to this project. As you can see, the development of what we want to do internationally in positioning Canada as a world leader is going to rely on indigenous programming and having an ally such as the CBC to help us develop capacity across the country.

I'm going to end the PowerPoint part of that presentation here and move on to some of our thoughts around the questions you've posed, and we're all going to contribute to that.

Let me just tell you where we are in the process. We are drafting a formal document to present to you, but that is not completed yet. In fact, we didn't know that we were confirmed to present this morning, so I hope you will indulge us as we work through our thoughts on your questions.

Before we move into the questions, I'd like to introduce my colleague Phillip Djwa, who runs a very successful digital media company. He's going to give you some insight as a small to mid-sized enterprise in the questions you've posed and his role in that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Will this relate to our CBC study?

[Phillip Djwa, President, Agentic, New Media BC]

Absolutely, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Great. Thank you.

[Phillip Djwa]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to talk to you about the CBC mandate.

My company, Agentic Communications, is a web development company. It's very representative of the majority of companies across Canada, as far as the interactive profile has revealed. We're a small business employing fewer than 20 employees, but we are still generating a significant economic impact across Canada.

As we know, the CBC needs to offer Canadian programming to all citizens. To remain relevant to Canadians, the CBC should be reaching out to address Canadians where they are. And that often is through different platforms, as we've seen. As the CBC's Robert Rabinovitch reported in his October 27, 2005, statement to this committee, CBC must be a leader in developing “specialized content for new platforms, like podcasting, satellite radio, and the Internet”. To some degree, this is actually occurring. CBC Radio 3, Bande à Part, the sadly defunct Zed television program, and the powerhouse that is cbc.ca have all provided additional value to Canadians online.

However, this is not the only opportunity that CBC has to offer Canadians. Many of the web initiatives on CBC are directed to supporting broadcast on radio and television. A project such as the CBC website Censor This!, which was an online initiative investigating issues of censorship that supported over 17 radio programs over a week in March 2007, is an excellent example of how an online initiative can support a larger vision of programming. None of the programs themselves could have supported the large-scale vision of censorship.

The CBC citizenship website is another example of unique Canadian content that's been created specifically for the web. CBC Aboriginal, which is another website property that CBC has launched recently, provides another example of how the CBC, in an online environment, can reach out to new audiences.

There is excellent online content being created at CBC North. As you may have seen in your trip recently, it has generated content specifically for the web on Canadian issues of interest to all Canadians, as has the new media pod in Halifax.

However, this is not enough. I think a key issue is that there's a lack of original Canadian content directed and developed specifically for the web. CBC has indicated to our industry, through informal conversations, that they would be willing to support further commissioning of original and unique Canadian content for the web if there were a revenue model for it.

I think, members of the committee, that there is a way, and that is to develop potentially an Internet broadcast licence. While this is probably a larger issue than this committee can address, I think there needs to be a coordinated effort to potentially complete the following.

First, amend the Broadcasting Act to include digital media as well as radio and television in the CBC mandate to encourage that unique digital media development. This would be different from the original proposal released last year in regard to supporting digital media as an adjunct or supportive role in radio and television. I think it's really clear to see, as we've seen in the presentation that Lynda provided to the committee, that there is significant activity in this sector that can really be addressed online and only online. There are enough content providers across Canada that can actually pull this off.

Second, encourage the development and distribution of an Internet broadcast licence that would be targeted to creating original Canadian content for the web. This could be achieved in a number of different ways, and we could talk about that as we get to some questions.

Last, encourage the private industry telecommunications providers to develop and sustain a fund to provide grants--not recoupable advances--to Canadian Internet content providers to create original Canadian programming online.

That concludes my brief presentation to the committee. Again, I'm very happy to be here to explain, or to talk, and to take any questions on those issues.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

[Lynda Brown]

Thanks, Phillip.

We have a number of responses to the questions you've posed. I don't know if you would prefer to move to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'd prefer to move to the questions, because we have, I'm sure, some other questions around the table. If questions have been asked that you want to respond to, and we come to the conclusion of your time, you could forward those answers, I'm quite sure, to the clerk. Thank you.

We'll go to Ms. Fry.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you.

I'm really pleased about the digital presentation, because I think this is key to where we need to go if we're going to distribute Canadian content that will be respected around the world. So I'm pleased to see you bringing this forward and some ideas on how we need to make this so--for instance, amending the act, etc.

I think Bob touched on something that is very important. Most of us sit here and talk about the CBC, and we continue to talk about CBC radio and CBC television, but those are not the only media anymore. If the world is going to see CBC and listen to CBC, we can no longer limit ourselves to just getting a million people watching Little Mosque on the Prairie. We have to look at how we are seen around the world as an international entity. To do that we have to talk about this new digital media.

You haven't mentioned something that Bob mentioned. Music is key, but I think Bob mentioned the idea of a copyright act. The U.S. has strong copyright legislation and we don't. If we're going to start getting into digitalization, we need to talk about how we can protect the creator and find a balance between protecting the creator and at the same time distributing broadly and widely.

I just want to ask Bob a question about the Copyright Act, and if you have a comment on it. I think it's key. How do we do it? We should have done it 100 years ago--well, I'm just kidding, but we should have done it yesterday. Talking about doing it tomorrow, I gather that digital media is changing every day as we speak. We're running to catch up. So I think this is a very key part of how the CBC can sustain itself.

Everyone talks about funding. You talked about a new way of funding, and I remember that the 1996 Canadian broadcasting report on the CBC talked about it. People said earlier that we should no longer do commercials--the BBC doesn't do commercials--because having to get commercial advertising means we have to do the great dumbing down. We have to be popular and go into some sort of competition, with the dumbing down of the media we get from around the world--some of these really ridiculous programs we see.

If we're going to have programming integrity and deal with quality, as Bob said, so people around the world can eventually look to the CBC as a place where you can have quality, everyone will want to watch the CBC. It's not only about Canadians telling stories to each other, but Canadians seeing the world from a Canadian perspective and presenting the world to others from our perspective. That is a huge piece of what we have to do.

So I would like to hear Bob talk a little bit about how we could deal with funding the CBC without having to go to advertising. There have been many suggestions. One of them in 1996 was to have a communication distribution tax levy, which the BBC does. The BBC is funded through a levy. Each person in the United Kingdom pays a tax to allow the BBC to exist. The BBC is then responsible directly to Parliament, and it reports every year to Parliament on how it is fulfilling its mandate.

I would like to hear someone discuss how we could do this with the CBC and create a body that is responsible to Parliament. Parliament would decide who was going to be the head of the CBC and who was going to run it. They would need to have the ability to do so and not just be some bureaucrat whose name is put forward, but somebody with an understanding of broadcasting, all digital media, etc.

How you see that happening? Do you think it's a good idea to create the CBC as a body that's directly responsible to Parliament, reports once a year, does away with advertising, and gets a tax levy from Canadians to fund it? It's a big question. Every time you talk about a tax levy everyone says, “Oh my gosh, no more tax.” But if we want to create something that can stand on its own and be like that great body, the BBC, then we need to be able to talk about the CBC and its future, and not just how to keep it running along on its old track that it's been running along on for so long.

I'm going to open it up for you guys to just throw in what you have.

[Bob D'Eith]

Thank you very much for the question. There are a lot of questions there.

First, if I could briefly address the Copyright Act, the United States has the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It has done for some time. Whether you agree with it or not, at least it has created some certainty in the area of digital rights. We don't have that in Canada. It's desperately required, and part of the big issue does actually talk about what the Honourable Hedy Fry was saying in terms of funding.

Because right now there's so much rampant piracy on the Internet from all areas of media, there really needs to be some consistency and a way of monetizing the Internet. We could find that there are revenue streams out there that will be coming online that could really help enhance CBC's revenue. Those models will obviously be developed by the new media community. But without certainty of law and without a way of enforcing that, it can be very difficult to have that monetization.

The other issue we found with CBC Radio 3 is that even CBC asking artists to waive their rights...they can, because there's no certainty. And here is CBC asking what we would expect from the other commercial broadcasters, but this is CBC.

So I think changes to the Copyright Act would be very important, not just for artists' rights, but also for monetization in helping to fund things.

As far as funding directly is concerned, you were saying you would take the position that there might be a separate levy of some kind.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I'm asking you to comment on the BBC model and whether it's applicable to Canada.

[Bob D'Eith]

I agree that it would be great to have advertising and what not out of the picture, and just fund CBC directly. I think that's a wonderful idea. I think having a public broadcaster is essential to Canada and our Canadian identity, and I think having that accountability to Parliament is not a bad thing.

This is off my topic, but I would want to make sure CBC remains impartial in terms of news coverage and isn't somehow beholden to Parliament, because I think it's very important to have that freedom to say whatever the news service wants to say. But as long as those rights are protected, I think some sort of direct funding in the way you're talking about, that model or some sort of levy, would be great. But there are other revenue streams that we're probably not even thinking about, especially from other areas like new media that will be coming online.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay, we will have your response. We have to try to keep this a little bit short so everyone gets a question.