Canadian Heritage Committee on June 1st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'd like to call this meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to order and to let everyone know that this meeting is televised.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study on policies and priorities of the Department of Canadian Heritage, appearing today is the Honourable Bev Oda, Minister of Canadian Heritage and Status of Women.

As witnesses, we have Judith LaRocque, deputy minister; and Bruce Manion, assistant deputy minister of planning and corporate affairs. Thank you very much for coming today.

I will advise everyone that the minister is here from 3:30 until 4:30. I will respect the five-minute questions today and we will carry on that way.

Without much more ado, I would ask the minister whether she has any opening remarks.

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Minister of Canadian Heritage and Status of Women]

Mr. Chairman, honourable members of this committee, thank you for this opportunity to meet you today.

As the Minister of Canadian Heritage, I look forward to working productively with you to deliver real benefits to Canada's cultural and heritage communities. I share your commitment to making sure our culture is strong and vibrant and that Canada's diverse communities fully participate and are reflected in our culture.

It has been just over 100 days since our government took office. In that time we have already made some significant moves.

My first initiative as Minister was to begin work to establish a Francophone Secretariat at the Department of Canadian Heritage. This project recognizes the fundamental role of Francophone communities in our country. In only three months, I have already met more than 50 representatives of Francophone arts and cultural groups in Quebec. These groups represent the richness of Canadian culture in all its forms, from the National Circus School to the Montréal Symphony Orchestra.

This cultural community is vibrant and innovative. In fact, the circus is a good example of a new art form developed in Canada. The Francophone Secretariat will ensure that my Department offers appropriate programs for Francophone communities in Canada. This demonstrates the commitment of our Government, which recognizes the specific cultural realities of Francophone communities, including the uniqueness of Quebec. That is why we have signed an agreement that ensures Quebec a place within UNESCO.

What's more, we are deploying all our efforts to ensure that the UNESCO Convention for the Promotion and Protection of the Diversity of Cultural Expressions is ratified.

It is important for our artistic community to achieve excellence both internationally and domestically. As minister, I am committed to ensuring that our investment in our cultural communities reaches the artists and creators. That is why I am extremely happy that the budget included real investment in the arts.

Our government committed an additional $50 million in funding over two years to the Canada Council for the Arts. The funds will support artistic creation in all disciplines and will benefit Canada's outstanding artists and arts organizations.

Following the tabling of our budget, I was pleased with the reaction of the Vice-Chair of the Canada Council for the Arts, Simon Brault. He said that the budget showed that the Department of Canadian Heritage was ready to engage in dialogue with the Council.

Our budget also included tax measures that have already realized significant benefits. Donations of publicly traded securities to public charities will no longer be subject to the capital gains tax. I have been keeping an unofficial count and have heard of about $85 million that has already been donated by private sources to cultural industries. The Department of Finance estimates that this move alone can result each year in up to $300 million in donations. I believe this may be a low estimate.

These are examples of how this government intends to deliver focused investment in a way that will be realized in real benefits to Canadians.

Another major area of my responsibility is Canada's media industries. In today's media world, technological changes are presenting traditional broadcasters with significant challenges. New technology has fragmented the market and introduced new competition. Who would have guessed, even a short while ago, that major networks would release their programs for download the next day, or that in the space of a few months webcasts and mobile video would become increasingly popular? Young people have found alternative ways of listening to music, such as over their iPods and the Internet. They have numerous choices and ways of getting their music and entertainment.

Other nations began to build the policy framework for the new digital world decades ago; Canada did not. I am committed to working with our broadcasting and media industries to make sure we are not left behind as the 21st century develops.

I am committed to ensuring Canada's broadcasters, both private and public, are strong. This means we need a strong production industry to generate unique Canadian programming.

As Minister of Canadian Heritage, I can tell you that this government does support the CBC/Radio-Canada. It is the largest cultural institution in this country. It receives approximately $1 billion in public support, and we have to ensure that it is relevant to the public it serves. The corporation has a very broad mandate, and that brings challenges in the new broadcasting and technological environment. We are presently looking at options on how we might support the CBC/Radio-Canada as it looks to its future stability and continued service.

Time does not permit me to present in detail the many other areas in which the department is moving ahead. For example, I am working with our museums community to ensure we have a strong museums policy. We are reviewing our feature film and national training school policies, as part of a complete review of all the department's programs.

This past spring, along with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, I met with Chinese Canadian communities from across the country to hear about the Chinese head tax. We have listened and developed a better understanding of the issues and feelings of the communities. The government will deliver on its commitment to apologize and respond appropriately.

Mr. Chair, as you know, the heritage department is responsible for both multiculturalism and citizenship. Yes, we support Canada's diverse communities, and we believe it is our responsibility to encourage them to bring with them, and celebrate, their arts, traditions, and celebrations. This is what a democratic country is about. Our responsibility regarding citizenship is to recognize that all Canadians, equally, have equal opportunities in all aspects of Canadian life. We understand that these are dual responsibilities. We believe that it is important to recognize the purpose and the objectives of the multiculturalism policy while, at the same time, taking very seriously our responsibilities regarding citizenship.

I am also pleased that the government was able to bring a just resolution to the former students of the Indian residential schools. I announced recently, along with the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the approval of a final Indian residential schools settlement agreement and the immediate launch of an advance payment program.

I am also proud that my department has delivered for aboriginal Canadians in so many other ways too. Recently I announced funding of nearly $77 million over four years for the National Association of Friendship Centres. This funding will give the friendship centres multi-year stability.

The aboriginal languages initiative has been extended for one year; as a result, $5 million will be available for community language projects in the 2006-07 fiscal year. We are now working on a long-term plan that will allow aboriginal communities to preserve their linguistic heritage.

Our government has only been serving Canadians for a short four months, and we are proud to have made significant strides in several areas relating to arts, culture, and heritage. I look forward to continuing to work with you and committee members to help strengthen this vital, dynamic, and exciting sector, and Canadian society as a whole.

As you announced, I have departmental officials available with me to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you for this opportunity. Merci beaucoup.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Our first question will be by Mr. Bélanger, for five minutes, sir.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Madam Minister. I'm sorry you can only stay an hour. I'd be pleased to have you for longer or even more often.

I listened to your comments. I'm going to get the written version and analyze them in depth. For the moment, allow me to state more of a comment than a question.

Some were very surprised that your government had decided to invest a little more money in the Canada Council for the Arts. There were zero expectations in that regard. However, others were very disappointed. You were critical during the election campaign, and you said that, if your party formed the next government, you would respect the previous government's commitment to double funding for the Canada Council. But that's not at all what you've done.

With regard to the government's decision and the House's agreement that the capital gains deduction credit will be raised to 100 percent, you're suggesting that will represent $300 million. However, I believe it represents $100 million more. I believe there are about 160,000 foundations and charities in the country that benefit from that money. Before suggesting that all those funds will be allocated to the arts, matters should be considered and statistics determined stating which proportion of that amount will indeed be allocated to the arts and how much money will be allocated to large artistic corporations, relative to small ones, which the Canada Council of the Arts supports. But we'll keep this question for another day.

Approximately two weeks ago, the committee unanimously passed a resolution that this committee take part in any review process that you could undertake with regard to the mandate of Radio-Canada or the CBC. I asked you the question in the House, and you seemed to be in agreement.

I'd like to know when your department intends to call on this committee to prepare for that exercise.

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger.

We've discussed this in the House and we've discussed this in meetings as well, initially, the commitment made by the previous government on funding for the Canada Council for the Arts. I will point out that the commitment, as I see it, is a real commitment, and indications of how real that commitment were sought, certainly. One of the major indicators would be that the money was there, clearly earmarked, as the increase was promised during an election campaign.

I've met with the Canada Council and with various organizations that would benefit from any increase to the Canada Council's funding. They are very excited that there is a firm commitment over two years. They understand that it's a stable commitment. They understand and are very positive about the opportunity of working with the new government on making concrete plans, so that the public can understand how they're going to benefit. The artistic community will also benefit.

In fact, I will relate to you that comments were that the expectations from that community may not have been as real as portrayed. They realized that those commitments by the previous government were made just days prior to an election.

As to the new tax credit measures, as we said, we asked the finance department and the Minister of Finance, in preparation of his budget, for the finance department to make an estimation. The estimation given by the finance department was up to $300 million.

The real facts are that just within the arts community, as reported back to me, as I said, it was $85 million to arts and cultural community organizations. That's just within a matter of a couple of weeks of that budget. That is not to say that we are saying all the money will go to the arts communities. We believe that the tax measures should help all non-profit. We have nothing against hospitals. We believe that the private sector should be able to choose to support the non-profit organizations in whatever areas of Canadian life they wish, but I'm very encouraged that just within a matter of a few weeks, we've already heard of direct contributions and commitments of over $85 million to the arts and cultural communities. And I believe, and I hope, that all sectors of the non-profit world will get their fair share.

In response to your inquiries about CBC/Société Radio-Canada, I am looking forward to the fact that this committee is eager to take a very positive and contributory role to our review of looking at this, and the opportunity that CBC will have as a corporation to put before the Canadian public--and to hear from the Canadian public--the role and the mandate they believe the public broadcaster should play in the future.

As you know, Monsieur Bélanger, through your chair, I have discussed various options on the ways and the means that this committee may participate and provide its input to this government for consideration in a very positive, effective, and time-efficient manner.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I didn't get an answer to my question. The question was very straightforward.

This committee accepted unanimously a motion asking to have input and the terms of reference of whatever the structure is that the government wishes to choose to do the mandate review. When will we be involved in that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Bélanger, we're at six minutes. Again, I've overshot the time. There will be an opportunity to ask next time.

Mr. Kotto, please.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here with us, Ms. Oda.

First, I'll say that I don't recognize the federal government's jurisdiction over culture and communications. As you will no doubt understand, this is a constitutional dispute that we've had with the federal government for about 40 years.

Having said that, I have a concern for transparency that's inspired in me by your sense of responsibility. That's a message that your government conveys. I'm relying on your cooperation to get an answer to each of my questions. However, if you're short of time, I'd like to have those answers sent to me in writing at a later time.

First, I'd like to put matters in perspective. The Department of Canadian Heritage Act provides that the minister shall have the following duties: [...] the Minister shall initiate, recommend, coordinate, implement and promote national policies, projects and programs with respect to Canadian identity and values, cultural development and heritage.

Your areas of responsibility are the policies and programs concerning broadcasting, cultural industries, the arts, heritage and so on.

In addition, in the Throne Speech of March 2006, your government made a number of commitments to citizens. However, support for the arts and culture was not one of them.

First, I'd like to know whether your government intends to make additional funding cuts to arts and culture programs, which are already under-funded.

Second, I'd like to know whether you intend to renew the Tomorrow Starts Today program, which was unanimously approved here in this committee last year. You were a member of this committee at the time, and you supported it enthusiastically. You recently wanted to re-evaluate that program, and that has now been done. The result of the evaluation was positive. Consequently, we can't wait to know when you'll be presenting the terms and conditions of implementation to your Treasury Board colleague for approval so that cultural organizations that rely on that financial support can finally receive the money they so need in order to exist. In the same vein, I'd like to know whether you would or wouldn't be inclined to make the Tomorrow Starts Today program permanent.

Further to what my Liberal colleague said, I would recall that your government announced additional funding of $50 million rather than the $150 million that has been sought for so many years. Here we're talking about enabling the community of creators and cultural sector workers to have a more or less decent life.

Do you seriously and sincerely believe that $50 million is enough? You mentioned Simon Brault's reaction. I have nothing against that person, but I rely more on the reaction of those who benefit from these programs.

I have before me a letter from an excellent musician who, having been admitted to a prestigious circle to perfect his art, had to return to the United States. I'm going to read you part of the answer that the Canada Council sent him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Just to remind you, you're almost at four minutes. The minister will only have a minute to respond. Again, if you want a response at this meeting, please conclude.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Chairman, it was customary in the 38th Parliament to have five minutes to ask questions. Then it was up to the minister to answer. We can't include the minister's answers in my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

That's not necessarily the way I understand it. I don't think it was ever that way. Lots of times in previous meetings, we tried to have a response from the minister the same length as the question. But we only have five minutes, and that's the way.... I just thought I would let you know. I'll extend it a little wee bit, but please come to a conclusion on the question.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

With all due respect, let me tell you that, in these circumstances, I consider this exercise futile. Considering all the questions we have to ask and the fact that we only have one hour, there's no point. So I'll stop here.

Thank you, Minister.

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will try to cover as much as I can and will make the commitment to respond in writing to the questions.

Are there plans for further cuts to arts funding? There are no plans currently to cut further arts funding. Many of these programs have served the artists community, the cultural community, very well for many years, and we want to ensure when we start reviewing them that they are still many aspects of them and that every aspect of them is the most effective way in today's world.

We see now greater opportunities of moving across the country for greater tours. We've seen where the hardship is, that many organizations aren't able to do as much touring as they'd like to do. I've heard reports of necessary cutbacks because of unstable funding and never knowing from one year to the next if the previous government was going to commit its funding to the arts.

These are things that we want to talk to the artistic community about and to ensure that they can now operate on a realistic basis on a year-by-year basis so that they can plan their growth, so that they can plan their futures. We know that for major exhibitions, major touring, major long-term planning by any organization, it does not help if it's purely on a 12-month basis, and we believe fundamentally it was unfair for every arts organization in this country to have to worry about whether on April 1 they were going to get the funding and what amount of funding they were going to get the following year.

That is one thing we are committed to do, but we're committed to doing it responsibly and accountably and in cooperation with the organizations involved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I'm going to keep my congratulations on having you in this position very short because I don't want the clock to run out on me, and I do not want to seem rude at all, but I will be hurrying along in my language and making lots of motions with my hands to hurry you along with your responses.

With the ongoing GATS negotiations, in regard to the plural-lateral request on telecom and the request that we received on audiovisual services, will your ministry be ensuring that senior staff are brought before us so that we can be updated on what's happening and what Canada's position is in terms of those and how they affect our cultural industries?

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

My response to that is, first of all, it's nice to see you again, Mr. Angus.

Regarding the international negotiations that are happening, I can tell you sincerely that I've spoken to the Minister of International Trade. I've clearly outlined to him what's involved, and my department has given him a full briefing on that aspect of the negotiations that would impact on the cultural industry. He's made a firm commitment that it is not the intent of our negotiators, it is not part of, and would not be part of, negotiating instructions, and he said that we would be fully informed as the talks go on and as any steps are taken.

If the committee so chose, Mr. Chair, to make a formal request, of course, we would cooperate with the committee as far as staff representation and reporting are concerned.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you. I have two housekeeping items to ask about.

I had the opportunity to meet people who belonged to Franco-Ontarian organizations working with isolated northern communities.

It's perfectly clear that there are problems between the Department of Canadian Heritage and the organizations working in the field. A number of issues remain unresolved. I tried to organize a meeting between those organizations and your office.

I was told by your assistant after three months that we should try our hand at the Official Languages Commission rather than speak to you, that you would not be speaking to us even though these are heritage issues. So I wonder, is that just a very zealous and hardworking assistant who's trying to keep you away from all the punters, or are you not willing to meet with us?

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Mr. Angus, as you know, there are very few things I'm afraid of in this area of culture and the arts. I'm always willing to meet with those who have expressed a desire to meet with me.

I must explain that I've been working with Madame Verner, Minister for la Francophonie and Official Languages, and she has asked to have a great hand and a large participation within the francophone communities and the arts and heritage committee. Working cooperatively, we had agreed that, if that was her choosing, certainly we'd be pleased to be able to give her the opportunity to demonstrate and to work with the community she was interested in. In fact, just recently Madame Verner made a major announcement in support of the franco-Ontarian community regarding that.

But more specifically to your question, I am certainly very sensitive to the francophone community outside of Quebec. Consequently, when we're looking at the parameters of the francophone secretariat, it is very important that we recognize that francophone community and their special needs and special circumstances.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

My question is, as the critic for our party, if I brought forward a number of people to meet with you just to talk about ideas, would you be willing to meet? It's great that you have a commitment to the francophone community, but are you committed to meeting with us when we request that?

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I will make the commitment here today that I look forward to a round table with the committee communities in the cultural and arts fields and the franco-Ontarian community.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to ask a question that can be responded to in writing, because if I don't get all my culture groups represented, they'll be so angry with me.

In terms of preparing us for the digital future, a lot of questions have been raised about the inappropriate use of digital rights management and technical protection measures that we've seen in the United States, the spyware that has gone into CDs, the sterile CDs that consumers haven't been told about.

In developing new copyright legislation, will you be able to respond to what protections consumers will have from this kind of abuse of technical protection measures?

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

In fact, I'm very pleased that you brought copyright up, because it is something we are working very diligently on.

As you know--we served together on this committee--Bill C-60 was introduced by the previous government. The bill fell when the House fell. The benefit from those unfortunate circumstances is that we got very vocal and very informed comments on that draft bill. We are now undertaking a review of those comments, and we will be tabling new legislation for copyright, most likely in the fall. We will then be able to take into consideration those comments and even more recent developments in the technology, as well as internationally, on how they're handling copyright.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

The other question I have is in terms of the CBC review and discussion that has happened and speculation from you and other members of your party about the CBC not competing for advertising dollars, given the limited funding we have and given the fact that we've lost our design production abilities out of Toronto because of budget constraints. What direction do you see if English Canada CBC no longer has the ability to compete for advertising? How are they going to be able to pay for programming?

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Mr. Angus, fundamentally the government has to ensure that a strong public broadcaster is providing the service and the programming that Canadians want of a national public broadcaster.

First, I'll have to establish what the mandate is, what the service is, and on what platforms the CBC should be doing its work. Once we establish the mandate, the services, and the platforms, then and only then can we establish its resource needs. To do that in the opposite way, to me, is not the responsible way to do it, to give Canadians the opportunity to say this is what we want our public broadcaster, in both languages, to provide to us.

We believe Canada needs and should have a national public broadcaster. We want to make sure that the service being provided by the CBC/Radio-Canada is the service that is wanted by all Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Fast.