Canadian Heritage Committee on May 3rd, 2007

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

As a committee we've heard testimony with regard to the objectivity or the non-partisan nature of media, specifically the CBC. There have been groups and individuals who have very strongly stated that they feel there is a segment of CBC that has challenges in terms of being objective and non-partisan.

I'm wondering how, if we're going to move into a situation where CBC would be a better reflection of Canada, we could assure that doesn't happen or assure that it is objective moving forward.

[Florian Sauvageau]

Let me start with a general comment. If you go into journalism, I assume it's the same as when you go into politics--it's a little because you are idealistic and want to change your world, to have a better world. So when you want to have a better world, in a sense, you're going to be a little more militant--and I'm saying that in a positive sense.

I don't believe those who say that CBC journalists are more leftist than other journalists, and that they are so different from the rest of society. Having said that, if you go into journalism, you're a little militant.

I'll give you the results of a survey we did, a colleague and me, at the end of the nineties. We interviewed 500 journalists across Canada in all the media. We found that the CBC journalists, en termes d'engagement politique, not partisanship, but in terms of “Are you more on the left or on the right”, are not so different from other journalists in other media. That's what our survey found ten years ago now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Because we went a little overboard on the first round, I made the questions about ten minutes each. So on this one, we're going to stick to five minutes. We have to be done as close to 10:30 as we can.

We'll go to Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I want to continue along the same lines as Mr. Angus and Mr. Warkentin.

You sort of answered my question, Mr. Sauvageau. Some people, as Mr. Warkentin said earlier, truly believe that CBC/Radio-Canada leans to the left. Mr. Gilbert, you said that you do analyses and that you heard complaints when you were ombudsman. You heard complaints about this and you did audits. You didn't just analyze one particular clip, but a series of news stories.

Have you ever noted an excessive bent to the left, to the right or anything else?

[Renaud Gilbert]

During the 25 years that I spent at the French network, I was accused of being either a separatist or a federalist. I was the Radio-Canada Parliamentary Bureau Chief in Quebec City in 1980, and there was a referendum that year. I was also Director of the Réseau de l'information in 1995, when the referendum took place that year. So I was involved in considerable analysis of all of those issues.

When Christine Saint-Pierre spoke out after having decided to run for the Liberal Party, she reminded us that journalists do not often discuss their reciprocal or mutual positions among themselves. I must say that at Radio-Canada, there are probably people whose views reflect the views of society. What is important is keeping their views and preferences out of their reporting.

I spent a long time in management. During that time, we tried to avoid biased views from appearing, and if they appeared, we went to great lengths to correct them as quickly as possible. I am inclined to tell people who accuse the French Services at Radio-Canada of being separatist to watch TVA instead. TVA is a separate television network. Radio-Canada's French Services are in 18 cities in Canada.

My friend Florian said that a major difference between Radio-Canada and TVA is the fact that Radio-Canada provides a great deal of information on what is happening throughout the country, in all of the provinces. I clearly understand that that is not necessarily the role of private television, but I must add that TVA has only one correspondent outside Quebec.

When you analyze that, you realize that in terms of content, efforts are undertaken to reflect the country, period.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

We often hear that given levels of advertising on private networks, private broadcasters are often more right-wing. Moreover, Lawrence Martin raised that yesterday in the Globe & Mail. Do you think that because of certain systematic or objective factors, private broadcasting will always be a little more to the right than Radio-Canada/CBC, which is in the centre? That seems logical to me, even if all journalists, according to your surveys, are working in good faith, if we use Noam Chomsky's argument.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We need a very short answer, because we're at five minutes right now--very short.

[Renaud Gilbert]

There is another difference between Radio-Canada and private broadcasters. Radio-Canada broadcasts a much higher number of newsreports, current affairs programs and public affairs programs than private broadcasters do. That means that Radio-Canada investigates a series of topics that private broadcasters do not cover. In the private sector, current affairs programs are generally programs where individuals express their opinions.

I do not want to comment on all of those opinions, but it is clear that research makes it possible to delve more deeply into certain topics and to highlight aspects that would not come out in the context of an opinion-based program.

[Florian Sauvageau]

I would like to add a comment.

Surveys that we have conducted show a huge difference between Radio-Canada journalists and those on private radio and TV. The difference is not based on their political beliefs, but on how they perceive their jobs. There again, I think there is a link with advertising.

Radio-Canada journalists see their jobs as being much more closely linked to the idea of public service, whereas private radio and TV journalists have a much more commercial view of their jobs. They attach much more importance to ratings and to the need to attract a large viewing audience.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We're having a hard time staying within our time limit.

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning gentlemen. This is rapid-fire questioning. Five minutes is not very long.

I am going to start with Mr. Renaud Gilbert.

If I understood correctly, in terms of dealing with complaints, you were a kind of second appeals level at Radio-Canada. When people were not satisfied with the way their complaint had been handled, the file was passed on to you. How is it that you had to deal with 1,500 complaints annually? Is it because Radio-Canada did not deal adequately with the complaints it received?

[Renaud Gilbert]

For starters, I want to clarify that there is also an ombudsman for English services. I did not say that at the outset.

I talked about 1,500 complaints. In general, one-third of them came from the public and did not concern the news service. Those complaints were sent on to the public relations services. For example, those kinds of complaints may be related to a change in the broadcasting schedule of a program or the fact that people cannot tune into Radio-Canada using their antenna. All kinds of problems exist.

As regards formal complaints, in any given year management receives about 250 complaints dealing with different topics. For example, during the leadership debate for the last federal elections, the English-language Services received 40,000 complaints linked to the fact that the leader of the Green Party did not participate in the debates. All of those cases dealt with the same complaint. There are approximately 275 areas of complaint. It is more or less the same on the English-language Services side. In general, a reply from management resolves most of the complaints. The ombudsman's role is to ensure that people receive a reply and that the reply is sent to them in a reasonable timeframe.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

We have traveled to certain cities in Canada. At that time, francophones outside Quebec shared a large number of complaints with us. I would like to know if they frequently turned to your ombudsman service.

[Renaud Gilbert]

I have received complaints from people in Vancouver, Regina, Toronto and Moncton, and they dealt with radio.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

But you did not receive any from people in Yellowknife, for example.

[Renaud Gilbert]

No.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You said that the percentage of programming for francophone communities outside Quebec was proportionally lower than their demographic weight. Given that assimilation is affecting these communities, would it not be helpful to give them preferential treatment and provide them with more services of journalists, in order to respect the famous equity principle you mentioned in your brief?

[Renaud Gilbert]

Your question would require a long answer.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Could you answer me in writing?

[Renaud Gilbert]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I am sorry for going so fast.

Mr. Sauvageau, to implement this principle of distinction and specificity that you mentioned, could more local regional and educational programming enable CBC and Radio-Canada to distinguish themselves, innovate and perhaps offer this different approach?

[Florian Sauvageau]

I won't give you a straight answer: there needs to be a balance. Both of you talked about francophones outside Quebec. I realized 20 years ago—and listening to you, not much has changed since—that francophones outside Quebec had reason to complain about Radio-Canada. If you are in Vancouver, tuning into Radio-Canada is often surrealistic. There are two problems. There is a problem of balance between centralization and decentralization. It is the same thing in English and in French. There is also the specific problem of francophones outside Quebec, but we do not have time to talk about that, because I would have to elaborate on the issue. I could send you some information, if you want, on the specific problems of francophones outside Quebec. We must also avoid exaggerating the importance of local programming; a balance must be struck. All countries have an artistic centre that does TV, advertising and motion picture film production. That cannot be done in a wide and dispersed area.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

There is another aspect, and I will conclude with that. In your brief, Mr. Sauvageau, you state that it would be premature to announce the imminent decline of TV. Could you send us a document on that? I find that important. People are tempted to go to cutting-edge media, to extrapolate and to stick to the flavour of the month to be “in”, but there are still people who only have ordinary television.

[Florian Sauvageau]

I can send you a study that our research centre has just completed and that shows that in terms of news, television continues to be very dominant. The share of the new media we are talking so much about—because the world of journalism is infatuated with new ideas, that is one of the negative aspects of journalism—is still very small in terms of news. I can also leave you a publication which...

Mr. Chairman, if you wish I can give you this publication we did with the World Radio and Television Council a few years ago, which has been translated by UNESCO into many languages. The title is Public Broadcasting: Why? How?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, gentlemen.