Canadian Heritage Committee on May 8th, 2007

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Brown.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to our witnesses.

First I have a comment. I appreciate that your mandate in this is quite narrow and that a lot of our questions are outside the mandate of the CBC, so you can really only comment on that. It's too bad, because I'm sure you'd like to tell us a few other things.

I do have one question. Going back to your report, you say the following:

We noted, however, that the development and use of targets to set performance expectations varies among the media lines and other corporate functions; some have clear and measurable targets, while others do not.

You also say that the lack of such targets makes it difficult to assess how well the corporation is fulfilling its mandate.

Could you give us an example of a case where there were clear and measurable targets and a case where there weren't, and how they might improve?

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll ask Ms. Charron to respond.

[Julie Charron]

We did see clear targets in the area of French radio specifically. Unfortunately, I cannot give you a specific example, but I know that in their internal plan they had very specific performance indicators.

As for the other networks, in some cases they had—

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

I don't mean to interrupt, but what kinds of performance indicators? I'm trying to get an example here of what you're talking about.

[Julie Charron]

For example, in French radio they wanted to increase the coverage throughout the country. They had set a specific target to increase to 90% coverage throughout the country by a certain date. In that case, we could measure whether they were meeting the expectation or not.

In the other media, we did not have such specific cases. They had broader performance targets--for example, “to meet the needs of Canadians”. There were no specifics as to what exactly they wanted to achieve.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Are there any suggested areas in which they may put some targets that could help us measure them? We've been hearing from a lot of witnesses what they think the CBC should be, and I think this committee is doing a great job of pulling that information out of witnesses so that we can make recommendations to the government. Is there anything that fits that?

[Sheila Fraser]

There are, to the best of our knowledge. Certainly at the time we completed this, they had begun to work on a much more robust set of performance measures generally in the corporation. We note--I think in their latest report--that they're progressing on that. So we would expect that they have certainly at least started to develop more performance measures in all of the media. We haven't gone back to actually see if that is the case or not.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

All right. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that.

Since we have gone through the full round, is there anyone else who would have a short question for our witnesses?

First we'll go to Mr. Abbot, and then we'll go to Mr. Kotto.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

This is just a very quick question, and I do not want it to be a rhetorical question. I am not leading you. I would like a very independent answer.

In listening to your testimony a few minutes ago with respect to appointments, particularly with respect to the CBC, if I heard your testimony earlier correctly, you were talking about having a broadcasting background for people who would be appointed. I'm not asking you to comment on the government's nominee for the chair. However, my question obviously has to do with that. That is, considering that this is a billion-dollar corporation, for most executive positions, or the most executive position, I wonder if you could give this committee the benefit of your analysis of the importance of broadcasting expertise versus corporate expertise.

[Sheila Fraser]

I would say that for any large crown corporation, a knowledge of the business in which the corporation operates is important for the board of directors. So at the table, there need to be people who have knowledge of that business. I would not say, though, that the chair necessarily has to have that particular knowledge, but those around the table do. That brings up, of course, the whole question of conflicts of interests and of having a rigorous process for ensuring that those potential conflicts are dealt with appropriately. But I think it is important that given the complexity and the size of this corporation, we can appreciate that some of those people around the table have to have knowledge of the industry.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

However, if we're talking about the appointees at the very top, which in this case would be the chair, then it's more a case of financial expertise, I would think.

[Sheila Fraser]

The boards of most of the crown corporations--I'd say all of them--have developed the profile of competencies they need around the table. As long as the people have those competencies as a group, the chair doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. It's as a group that they have to be there.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Kotto.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I have three simple questions.

Do you think the CBC is underfunded?

[Sheila Fraser]

I cannot answer that question because we do not assess the level of funding of crown corporations.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

What is the inspiration and motive behind the recommendation you made in point 113? Do you think the corporation's response is satisfactory?

[Sheila Fraser]

We noted that rights were not sufficiently well managed to determine whether a value should be used. Yes, we are satisfied. In the English network, I believe, the corporation has already entrusted the management of rights to a director. We see that these people are already more aware of the problem and will ensure that rights are properly managed.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Some witnesses told us that involving all the crown corporation's resources would help it obtain better results.

What do you think?

[Sheila Fraser]

Could you explain what you mean by “resources”? Are you talking about the employees?

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

The employees, the creative force of the CBC's partners.

[Sheila Fraser]

I think we mention this in the report, but the corporation absolutely must establish very important relationships. Moreover, that is one of its strategic objectives. These people talk about creative human resources and collaboration with partners on their site. It is essential for the success of the corporation.