Canadian Heritage Committee on May 15th, 2007

[Melissa Kaestner]

To give you a sense of the kinds of programs we would be looking at through this fund, there are four main programs that speak to the main challenges that our sector faces as a whole. First are sustainable and capacity-building activities, which essentially constitute operational funding. Second, as Brigitte just mentioned, is local community news and access to the airwaves. Third is on the music side--Canadian talent development and emerging artists. Fourth is funding for emerging distribution technology--new media.

[Serge Paquin]

In conclusion, with respect to the CBC/SR's mandate, I think we all agree that it is important for a Crown corporation to reflect the needs and aspirations of Canadians from coast to coast. This mission must not be called into question, because this is important for all Canadians. Of course, the issue here is quality programming, and the CBC/SRC has the means to provide quality radio and television programming.

The Corporation has evolved in a competitive broadcasting environment. It is often said that we are not in competition. We do not believe that we are competing with the CBC/SRC. At least this is true of our sector and of private radio. We play a complementary role. Obviously, people looking for entertainment radio will turn to private radio. People looking for news will tune in to the CBC/SRC. People looking for local radio, and who want to know what's going on in their community, their region, will turn to community radio. Therefore, all components of the Canadian system complement one another.

A healthier community radio sector can only benefit the Crown corporation. Currently, we serve as a training ground for CBC/SRC employees. There is a very high staff turnover rate at our stations, and the vast majority of our people will eventually move on to work for the CBC/SRC. Therefore, we are the ones who train young people, the ones who will later work for the CBC/SRC. We do not receive any credit for this. We train people, and once they have perfected their skills, the CBC/SRC “steals” them away from us. That's fine. It is our role to train people, to show them the ropes. The Crown corporation ultimately benefits from our efforts. All the better if community radio is thriving, because this benefits the CBC/SRC as well.

This complementary relationship is important for Canada's sovereignty. A responsible government cannot isolate itself and allow only the CBC/SRC to exist within the Canadian system. There is private radio to consider. The CRTC has arranged it so that there are virtually no regulations for private radio. Mergers worth over one billion dollars have recently been approved. Three mergers are valued at about $3 billion. The CRTC is going to look into the issue of convergence. With mergers valued at $3 billion, the sky is the limit. Private radio is no longer subject to regulations, aside from the requirement to broadcast 35% Canadian content. Private radio is growing and is posting record profits.

Private radio went through some hard times in the early 1970s. The CRTC deregulated the sector to increase competition and the move worked. Today, private radio is profitable. It posts huge profits, whereas public radio is fully funded by the State. The community sector has been left to fend for itself.

In conclusion, the Canadian government must take steps to ensure that all components of the Canadian system are interconnected, so as to balance the needs of all Canadians. Today, we are here to make you aware of those needs.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. We are now ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that.

The presentation was a little long, so I'm going to ask the people who are posing questions and giving answers to be as short as possible. I'm going to allow about four minutes each. I'm sorry for that, but we have another committee following us and we have a bit of business to talk about at the end of this.

Mr. Scarpaleggia, please go first.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I found your presentation to be interesting, but I'm trying to identify a common thread. You seem to represent a broad range of community radio interests. I very much understand the mandate of community radio stations in remote official language minority communities in which there is no CBC/SRC presence. You reach out to a very small number of people. You also represent urban community radio, such as Radio Basse-Ville de Quebec, for example, in addition to campus radio stations.

I suppose that audience ratings also vary. Do many students listen to campus radio? I wonder how many people listen to Radio Basse-Ville de Québec, given the choices that exist.

How do you perceive your own role vis--à-vis the CBC/SRC? When it comes to linguistic minorities, should you forge a closer partnership with the CBC/SRC? Perhaps you should also try to secure some funds from the CBC/SRC for your employee training activities?

There are many different opinions, and I believe that you have not sufficiently described the CBC/SRC's role in Canadian communities. Have you received any complaints about the Corporation? Does it hinder your operations in any way? I'm trying to understand how you perceive the CBC/SRC.

[Magalie Paré]

To answer one part of your question on urban radio, I would say that the proximity I spoke of throughout the presentation serves as a common thread. We define ourselves as local radio stations. In an urban setting, this proximity decreases and special interests emerge. Radio stations in the Magdalen Islands will draw a large audience because of geographical proximity and common interests; whereas in an urban setting, specialized programming may target a very specific segment of the population, but may still draw a high number of listeners because of the large catchment population.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Which segment are you targeting?

[Magalie Paré]

We are targeting the inter-cultural segment. Radio Basse-Ville is one very good example. Radio Centre-Ville in Montreal also targets the same audience group. These radio stations are targeting immigrant populations. The stations broadcast in languages other than French or English, or offer programming in French, but geared to French-speaking immigrants who have settled in Montreal or Quebec City. This is proximity, but of another kind.

I will hand the floor over to Serge, who also wanted to say something.

[Serge Paquin]

In answer to your question, let me tell you a little story. I am sitting in a bar in Clare, a region in south-western Nova Scotia, Saulnierville, Comeauville. I ask the locals what radio station they listen to. They tell me they listen to CIFA, the local radio station. I ask them why they don't listen to the CBC/SRC. They answer that: “We don't understand anything they're saying”. They don't understand what they hear on the CBC/SRC.

How can a responsible radio station speak to a community in French, but in a type of French that people don't understand? Since 1991, we have been trying to establish closer ties with the CBC/SRC. We managed to negotiate a small advertising deal with the corporation, which used to send us recorded advertisements. That partnership lasted a few years. Since we wanted these vignettes to be adapted to our needs, and to the needs of the communities, there was a great deal of effort involved. Finally, the partnership ended because the CBC/SRC didn't have the funds.

In any case, the CBC/SRC is like an ivory tower. Decisions about French-language radio are made in Montreal. The tower is impregnable. They use the union as a scapegoat, but there are no programs. They have no mandate to help community radio, and there are hardly any partnerships in place.

I am not saying that they don't do good work. They do excellent work, because they have the money to do so. However, when a francophone minority is involved, then we have to wonder about their effectiveness and what they deliver. If they are no longer effective and if there are only a few dozen or a few hundred listeners, then perhaps a new formula is in order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

That took about six minutes. So the question was a little long and the answers were really good, but let's try to keep them a little shorter, please.

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, let me say that I was not expecting to hear you deal with these subjects. The documents that you had provided were all focused on your request for an $18-million fund. I am nevertheless quite happy to hear you speak about other issues. Committee members visited some locations in Canada. We were led to believe that the CBC/SRC radio was quite successful, that it had a large listening audience and provided a service that virtually everyone could access, with the exception of the francophone communities that were fighting to have their radio station recognized.

You presentation was very interesting, inasmuch as you may be the answer to a request we received for a more immediate type of radio service. I think you could meet a number of local needs. Do you ever hear from people outside the region? I am thinking, for example, of the anglophone provinces. A large number of French-language communities outside Quebec have inadequate services, and, like you, they are in need of funding.

Moreover, and I will close with this, Mr. Chairman, you wanted to meet with Bev Oda, but she declined the invitation. I would like to know what is behind her refusal and what reason she gave. The time has come for us to know: we are in committee.

[Serge Paquin]

Let me qualify that. When you travel, you often meet with the elite, the people who are involved in the francophonie milieu. The average citizen does not necessarily ask to appear before the committee. Of course, these people listen to the CBC/SRC, but you have to pay attention to the real figures, because they are the only ones that have any meaning. The ratings in Nova Scotia are lower than 1%; that speaks for itself. There's no use hiding it: in Montreal, the French-language CBC radio network is a huge success. They have excellent ratings. However, as you move away from the city towards the regions, the audience share drops to 3%, as is the case in Moncton. By contrast, the Shediac community radio station, CJSE, has a 54% rating, the best one of all the stations combined, even the English-language ones. That is how things are.

As to demand, we have nine stations in the works, which means that nine communities want to set up their own radio station. It is a lengthy process. They have to first come up with 50% of the funding, which means that they have to organize a yearly fundraising campaign. The demand is even greater out West, because of the development work that has to be done. As you know, the francophone community in western Canada is weakened and spread out across a wide area. That makes things difficult for us.

There is a demand, but it is not easy to mobilize a community that is already challenged to set up a radio station that will take six, seven or eight years before it begins broadcasting, particularly when the tools and the funding are not all readily available. Moreover, once you have taken the plunge, you have to be sure that your head will remain above water. In a small anglophone community with 1,000, 2,000, 4,000 or 5,000 inhabitants, that is a real challenge. Setting up a community radio station in Calgary is no mean feat. There is a population of 10,000 or 15,000 francophones, but no francophone neighbourhood. It is very difficult to mobilize people and to ensure that such a project will be properly funded.

[John Harris Stevenson]

On the request to meet with the minister, it's quite straightforward. In the time that I've been involved in community radio in Canada--about 20 years--no meetings have taken place between community radio representatives and the minister. Our sector has gone through a number of transformations, and we're going through another one. We feel that the minister should meet with representatives of the main sectors of media in Canada. That hasn't taken place. And to be fair, it didn't take place with the last government either.

[Magalie Paré]

She told us that she could not meet with us because our application would not be eligible under of her programs.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

That is rather far-fetched.

[Magalie Paré]

We're asking more or less for a program to be created.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you for your presentation.

I admit that I am very fond of community radio and campus radio. I truly believe that you are making a special contribution to developing new talent.

I don't like to do glory day stories, Mr. Chair, but I'm going to indulge myself with the three minutes I have left.

When I was 18 I went on the road with a band and we'd play all these little islands of music events, and the only places we could play were places that had community radio, because nobody else played new music. We came to Ottawa, and we found out we had sold out three nights at the Roxy club, and we couldn't believe it. How was it possible that we had a lineup to see us? It was because CKCU had a signal that was heard all across the city.

On the third night, because there were so many people coming to see us—because this radio station promoted it—the DJ from the big rock station came to see us, and he came backstage. And that was in the days when the CHUMs and the CHOMs were like these giant edifices that never touched new music. He said how much he loved our band and this was fantastic, and I said, “So why don't you play us?” He explained, “Oh, you don't understand. Our radio station is for people who don't like music.” He basically said, “It's not in our mandate to play interesting music.”

My question is simple. It's a two-parter. One is on the role you play as a nursery of new talent, of new broadcasters, of cultural raconteurs who get their start. What role do you have in that, and what role do you have in relation to CBC? Secondly, now that we have the Internet and MySpace and other forms that are also acting as a cultural nursery, is that an opportunity for your industry, or is it a challenge, a threat?

[John Harris Stevenson]

I remember when you went through Halifax back in the early eighties, and I remember the posters being up. So I was involved at that point.

What drew me to CKDU in Halifax was that I couldn't get jazz anywhere. I couldn't even get rock music anywhere. That's a role that community radio has played since the 1970s. People hear a band they like, and because they have a program, they have a power to put that on the air. It's that risk-taking that allows new talent to be discovered.

When I was at CKDU in Halifax, Sarah McLachlan was in her first concert with her first band, which was this techno pop band. We promoted it at the radio station. We incubated her career, we incubated Sloan's career, and there are stories all across Canada of that happening. And it continues to happen.

Community radio and campus radio continue to have a very strong role in that area because we still have a very substantial audience compared to the high level of fragmentation on MySpace and these other sites.

That doesn't mean we're not doing more new media things, because we are. We want to do new music podcasting, audio on demand for all of our audiences, and just make that material available more widely in formats that people want to see.

But there's nothing like having a physical space where you can go and take your CD and say “Check this out. I did this.” It's probably going to get played and someone's going to comment on it; and from that, careers are born.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Abbott, for the last question, please.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much.

I appreciate your input today. I'm just wondering if you might be in conflict with something that happened a few years ago when we did the study of the status of broadcasting in Canada. One of the things that came out of that was the idea that CBC radio had an opportunity and a responsibility to be more reflective and to do more at the local level.

As it happens, in my constituency, where my constituency office is, they're looking at the following. If we receive funding, CBC says, CBC will be producing a morning show in the Kootenays, produced in Cranbrook. You'll have increased content for the noon show, which will remain regional because you have a staff person on the ground feeding content. It's going to improve. You'll have local news incorporated into the newscast seven days a week. There'll also be a cultural component to the station: there will be local culture on the local radio. It will be able to promote local culture to the network, so there will be local exposure for Kootenay artists on the network, artists, authors, comedians, musicians--we're talking about all sorts of artists. They're looking for $25 million to make this happen across Canada, not just for that.

What the CBC has done, to their credit, is respond positively to the direction of that report, the so-called Lincoln report, and they are moving forward. It strikes me from everything you've said today that in fact what they're doing is responding to what you say you're responding to. I think there is some head-on conflict here, and I wonder if you'd help us resolve that appearance of conflict.

[Melissa Kaestner]

I just want to make a really brief comment about the Lincoln report. The fact was that it was a study on the state of the Canadian broadcasting system, and we were not in it. Our sector was not. And I think that this is one of the overarching points of why we're even here today. We came and approached this committee to ask for a similar review of the campus and community radio sector, and we were told that probably wouldn't happen, so we needed to come and speak here.

Likewise with the Lincoln report: with being excluded from that but there still being the need for more local and more community content, it's only natural that coming out of that report it would seem that it would fall to the CBC. And it's great that the CBC is looking at doing other things in that area, but what about the stations that are already doing it there? You're talking about increasing the local content for that station when you have at least two radio stations in the Kootenays, one that's just developing in Castlegar, I believe. I might be wrong about that. But they're already doing that, and all of the programming is local and they don't have somebody regional who is feeding information to somebody else. It's just all done by the people who are in the local community.

Had the Lincoln report included us more, I think those roles would have been a little bit more clearly defined.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Would I be wrong in suggesting that you wouldn't really be in favour of this expansion of CBC radio into local broadcasting?

[John Harris Stevenson]

I think that any service extended to people in rural areas and remote areas or cultural communities has to be encouraged. The issue that we would have is when CBC goes into an area or serves a community, and I think as a different example of Radio 3, which is broadcasting primarily independent Canadian artists. It's one of the satellite channels on Sirius Canada. This is a service that is nearly identical to a campus radio station in terms of its format and sound, yet taxpayers' dollars are going into that to create a service that already exists all across the country in most cities and in many smaller communities.

I think it's a reality that CBC cannot go into every rural area that could support a community radio station. The area that I'm from in Nova Scotia has a small village called Tatamagouche. It's not even close to Pictou, really. It's about a thousand people. They would like to have a community radio station. They'll never get served by CBC, so there has to be accommodation for both things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

If there any other comments that you would like to make to anyone around this table, please send them directly to that person, but we have to have about a one-minute break here. The next committee is already coming in, and I do have a little bit of business that we have to take care of.

Thank you very much for your presentation this morning.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I call the meeting back to order.

This is in regard to committee business on Thursday. There is a need to see where this committee is going with our current study in order to have a better focus during our last hearings in St. John's and in Montreal.

You will receive today a draft plan of the report and possible recommendations. I would recommend that the meeting on Thursday be held in camera, since there will be discussions on some recommendations, and according to a long-standing practice of the House of Commons procedure, all substantive reports have to be kept confidential until presented to the House.

Do I have consensus around the table that we hold our meeting on Thursday in camera?