Canadian Heritage Committee on May 27th, 2008

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to congratulate you on the eloquence of your presentations.

Like Ed, I'm going to disclose my bias. I was a three-time attendee at the Courtney Youth Music Camp. I was part of the Vancouver Junior Youth Orchestra, and a member of a woodwind quintet when I was in my mid-teens, and part of the Cape Town Performing Arts Board Orchestra in early university years. So I do have a bias.

What I was hearing George talk about is almost the radio orchestra ecosystem. It's not only that there is the orchestra and the products it produces.... I've been in reforestation for 25 years, so like a tree, it's not only the value of the logs, it's the whole ecosystem that's supported by the tree. You talked about talent development and nurturing the producers as well as the talent, and the composers, so it's quite an ecosystem spreading out.

The question that I have for you, George, is if the provision of this public good--which is the radio orchestra--ends, how do you see that ecosystem of associated benefits being provided?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Which George?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Mr. Laverock.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Thank you.

[George Laverock]

This reminds me of one of the questions Mr. Siksay asked earlier, and I was thinking a lot about it. Part of that ecosystem is the recordings the orchestra has produced over the years. Some of you may not realize it, but these recordings are played all over the world by public broadcasting systems. They're played every day on the BBC, they're played every day on Radio France, and all over the world. This gives Canada a foreign relations weapon that is unlike anything else.

That's one of the things that will go down the drain, when we're not making recordings by our best artists and our best composers. It's part of our foreign relations mechanism that's very important.

I'll leave it to others to add to what I've had to say. Thank you.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I do have another question to ask, and then if others would like to address that first question as well, that would be great.

Is it your view that if CBC were adequately funded, whatever that number is, that would be the solution to proper support for a CBC Radio Orchestra per se? Or is it your view that a broader problem exists, in that the strategic direction given by CBC management undervalues classical music, as somebody said, as the cornerstone of musical education and the radio as an important institution to support?

Is more money for the CBC enough, or do you think something else needs to be changed or done to support the radio orchestra in its role?

[George Laverock]

That's a very difficult question to answer, because the present management seems to disdain higher culture.

The first thing, which I would call in your ecosystem a canary in the mines, was that I, as the director of Festival Vancouver, was called into the office of the head of music for Radio 2 and was told they would no longer be doing the 25-second promos for cultural events in the local communities. This was very disturbing to all the cultural organizations in Vancouver. So we asked why there would no longer be any 25-second promos for what's going on culturally in the city. They told us it was cluttering their programming. Then they replaced that with twice as many 25-second promos promoting programming that's happening later in the day on CBC. That's self-promotion, so I can't trust them any more as to what they're intending to do.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Thank you.

Anyone in Vancouver want to respond to that question?

[Jeremy Berkman]

I think one of the key questions about CBC, and I think you're getting to it, is content. The budget is something, and money is important. But what we're really talking about is the quality of the content, and it's very hard to tell CBC we want better content. It's not your job. We need artistic quality leadership at the CBC to create that content with the budget they have.

Isn't it ironic that the CBC Radio Orchestra is a purveyor of such incredible content? This orchestra has created some of Canada's most incredible musical history, and disbanding the orchestra makes absolutely no sense in relation to using whatever money they have to create excellent content.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Thank you very much.

Now I'm going to Mr. Del Mastro for five minutes.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Fast would like to clarify a statement he made. I'll give him the opportunity.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Del Mastro.

To follow up on the question regarding what could be done to address the issue at CBC and the reduction of classical programming, I'm reminded that even the minister herself may not have the broad power to specifically force CBC to restore the programming it's axed. Section 46 of the Broadcasting Act specifically provides CBC with that significant degree of independence. It may take statutory relief to make this kind of a change, which would be a dramatic move.

So you can see the kind of difficulty this committee has, the difficulty the government would have if it disagreed with the position CBC took with respect to programming.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Thank you.

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone who is participating today in our eco-friendly tour to Vancouver with no resulting GHGs via airplanes going out there.

I have a couple of points. CBC indicated this was a business decision. I recall Mr. Siksay taking some offence to the new president of the CBC referring to it as a company. I think the danger for the public broadcaster is when it starts to make business decisions in a corporate fashion. I think that's why we're sensing some of your frustration. We're talking about something, I gather from testimony today, that fully funded would be less than one one-thousandth of the capacity provided to the CBC.

We're going to make a recommendation, and perhaps a few of you would care to tell us what that recommendation should be. What would your recommended wording be to this recommendation, understanding what we have done? It was a unanimously supported motion. We have provided a platform. Here's your opportunity to say to CBC, through us, what you would like to be said. I'd like to know what that recommendation would be.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

I think we're starting in Montreal.

[George Laverock]

Thank you.

If you look at the end of my brief you will see I made a rather positive suggestion. I think with a bit more money than the CBC orchestra was spending it could be made into a national treasure, and I don't think it would be inappropriate for the committee to suggest that the CBC consider creating a national treasure by renewing support for the CBC Radio Orchestra.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Thank you very much.

Does anyone in Vancouver want to answer that question?

[George Zukerman]

I would like to inject the following idea. It seems to me that the CBC is desperately in need of artistic direction. They have nobody there who has any view of the future.

It's ironic that in the spoken word, on Radio One, there is a great deal of radio intelligence. There are the Massey Lectures; there is Ideas; there is Writers & Company. Nobody says these are elitist or these only belong to a limited population or a limited audience. They are welcomed. They are the mainstay of Radio One broadcasting.

When it comes to music--

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Just specifically to a recommendation, I guess Mr. Laverock pointed out that he actually would view this as an opportunity.... Quite frankly, if this were a business, and you were looking at it as a business and you have a product that presumably they have determined is in decline, you have two options with a product in decline: you can either elect not to serve that product any more, or you can elect to reinvest in that product and make it bigger to have a bigger return. I think that's what Mr. Laverock has indicated.

Is that something that would be unanimously held, that as opposed to kind of marginalizing it to the point that it is now considered a product in decline that should no longer be in existence, this is something that you would suggest should be invested in to a greater extent, so that it might be of greater value to CBC? Is that a recommendation that you would like to see come out, or would you like the recommendation simply to say that it be re-extended as it was before? That's kind of what I'm getting at.

[George Laverock]

I would agree with most of that, but I wouldn't agree with the aspect of it being a product in decline. When I took over the CBC orchestra in 1980, I was told by my boss that the best way for me to keep this orchestra going for a long time was to make a success out of it, so we made a success out of it. We made great recordings. They went all over the world. Wonderful soloists and composers were exposed to the Canadian public, and now they are somehow--for some reason beyond our understanding--taking it away. It is not a product in decline, but--

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I just want to be clear: I wasn't suggesting that. I'm saying from a business standpoint that is why you might make that decision. I wasn't alleging that, just to be clear.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Would anyone in Vancouver...?

[George Laverock]

I agree with the second part of your premise, and that is, with a small additional investment it could have been made something all Canadians could be proud of.

[Jeremy Berkman]

If I could just add one thing, if you look at this as a product--although it is one--I think you do miss the point that the vulnerability of it is not something about revitalizing it or dismissing it. This is a matter of protecting it.

In terms of what we're asking for classical music, we're saying this is a very vulnerable community. There aren't any other stations for classical music. There aren't any other avenues for Canadian composers to have their work performed at the level of the CBC Radio Orchestra, to have it recorded as the CBC Radio Orchestra does. This is a very vulnerable community, and I feel your role as our representatives of the public is to protect those communities--whether they be economic or cultural--that are vulnerable.

At this point, the CBC management has put the classical music industry and particularly of course the CBC Radio Orchestra in a position of extreme vulnerability. This is where we need your help.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andy Scott]

Thank you for that.

Now to Mr. Siksay, and perhaps the last round, so perhaps organize your thoughts to take advantage of that and give us as quick answers as is possible.