Canadian Heritage Committee on May 29th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that.

We'll go now to Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for their testimony today, and for their written briefs, which are also very helpful.

Mr. Tovey, given your experience with different kinds of orchestral organizations—maybe I don't have the right language for that, but different settings of different kinds of orchestras—can you speak to the particularity of a radio orchestra? What is it about the CBC Radio Orchestra that's different from the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra, or the other orchestras you're involved with? What is it that's particular about their mandate that won't get covered somewhere else?

[Bramwell Tovey]

The difference between an independent orchestra like the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra or a broadcasting orchestra is quite clear within the profession, and I'm glad to have this opportunity to underline it, because for the layperson or for people involved in the broadcasting industry, it's often very unclear indeed.

An independent orchestra like the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra operates on a subscription season basis whereby people invest in the subscription of their choice for a particular series or type of music during the course of the year. Our budgets are mapped out two years in advance and they're according to guest artists who come into the city.

We have Richard Kurth here from UBC. What actually happens is that when his students leave UBC.... Before Ben Heppner, for example, arrived on stage with the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra or arrived on stage with the Metropolitan Opera, he had to undergo a period of development. He was singing in local choirs here in Vancouver that were actually broadcast on CBC Radio. Young composers who have emerged from UBC and who have emerged from some of our other campuses across the country had their teeth cut, as it were, at the CBC composers competition, played by the CBC Radio Orchestra.

Incidentally, I conducted this orchestra only once, but it was as part of this particular project, and one of the works went on to win a prize at the International Festival of Contemporary Music in Paris that same year.

A radio orchestra operates a mandate that's really producer-based. So the radio producers would help to drive the repertoire choices, the promotion of Canadian talent, and the promotion of Canadian content.

Measha Brueggergosman, for example, who now is a world-famous artist with a Deutsche Grammophon recording contract, made her first recording with CBC Records. Our own recording of the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra that was made with CBC Records, as you've already heard, has won a Grammy. But the CBC Radio Orchestra has made, I would guess—although I don't know actually, but I would imagine—more records for CBC Records than anybody else, of Canadian content. The entire heritage aspect of Canadian music has been performed and played by the CBC Radio Orchestra in its traditional role and function as a tool of the CBC.

A CBC radio orchestra does not have to worry about box office restrictions, but then, of course, that opens the question, if that's the case, why do we need one? Why not have the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra that is open to box office restrictions? But the functions are very different. The development of composers and the development of young artists within a studio context is something that all major concert-music-producing broadcasting organizations—for want of a better collective noun—have done. So a radio orchestra's function is something specific I think to Canadian music and young Canadian artists.

The VSO is very much an international profile organization; we're doing a tour of China and Korea this year. But the CBC function is something for the airwaves and has that particular curatorial thought.

If I could just liken it, for example, to the National Gallery of Canada, which contains sections of national and international masterpieces, but also contains, of course, rare copies of Group of Seven art and Canadian art, the function of the National Gallery in that respect is something that one wouldn't expect perhaps from something that was more commercially based around the country.

The CBC Radio Orchestra looks after our Canadian heritage specifically.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair. What's my time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

You have 30 seconds.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I have maybe a quick question to Mr. D'Eith.

I think you said something a little different in terms of programming at Radio 2, in that you were pleased about the opportunity for other genres to get more airtime on CBC Radio 2. Can you talk specifically about which genre you see as getting that kind of airtime and why they don't get it in commercial radio?

[Bob D'Eith]

Sure. Commercial radio is extremely narrow in scope. They have rock radio stations, Top 40 stations, and things like that. I would say that over 90% of artists we work with are not appropriate for commercial radio. It's a very, very narrow group. So to broadly say any popular music is well taken care of by commercial radio is ridiculous. It's absolutely not the case. Ninety percent of music produced out there would never be played on commercial radio—specifically, world music, folk music, certain types of jazz. You might get soft jazz on commercial radio, but you're not going to get anything that's substantial or interesting. I think the whole idea that CBC should fill in the gaps where the market won't provide is the perfect case for contemporary music.

I know it's tough, because I'm a big supporter. I'm a classical musician myself. I love classical music and I've grown up with it. I went to Courtenay Youth Music Centre, too, as a kid. But I also work with all the genres, and I see a real problem with the way the market is right now, because in fact commercial radio is tightening.

I don't know if that answers—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Abbott is next.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you. Welcome to the panel.

I just want to underline with Ms. Murray, Mrs. Fry, and Mr. Siksay that as Vancouver residents you will eat your hearts out; I had dinner with Mr. Tovey just last Thursday night and had a very nice time.

My point is that I wanted to reiterate for the benefit of the members of the panel in particular that whether we are on the government side or the opposition side of this table, we are all in this thing together. I think there's a comedian who says that too.

We're looking at an issue here about which, for example, Mr. Tovey did say today is “without proper public debate and due scrutiny”. In our committee we are wrestling with something Mr. Malo alluded to.

I wonder if I could go through an exercise here with you that hopefully we're going to do with all our panels. I wonder if I might get, if it's possible to get, a yes or no answer to the following question: is it your desire to see this committee, the government, or the minister intervene on this issue and direct the CBC in its programming relating to Radio 2 and the orchestra? Could you answer yes or no?

[A witness]

Yes.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Are there any noes?

[Bramwell Tovey]

Actually, I'm a qualified no, the reason being that I want you to recommend to CBC that they listen to the public, because if they listen--if there's a format and a means of listening--then they can do their job.

I don't think you're actually able--and by the way, I enjoyed that dinner as well.

I think what we desperately need is a CBC that listens to the public, and what we have right now is a CBC that doesn't listen. Your committee, I'm terribly sorry to say--as you well know, and as we've already said--is unable to influence what's on the airwaves. I don't think you can order CBC to program things in that way, so I would prefer you to order them to listen to the Canadian public and to have a proper open discussion about all this. So my “no” is qualified.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I understand. I think all of us respect that, and many of us feel the same way. Subsection 46(5) guarantees the “journalistic, creative and programming independence” of the CBC, and that's not a regulation; that is a law.

The next question that I think would be valuable for you to address, please, is that in the current situation the law prohibits the government from directing the CBC in matters of journalistic, creative, and programming decisions. Is it your desire to see intervention on this issue? Do you suggest the committee recommend that the law be changed to allow the government to direct the CBC on these matters?

[Dr. William Bruneau]

Could you soften the word “direct”?

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I'm just thinking that because the Broadcasting Act guarantees the “journalistic, creative and programming independence”--those are the words from the act--we can find another word, but we could turn it around and say the Broadcasting Act directs that the CBC would take direction from the government or this committee or the minister.

Would that be desirable, in your judgment?

[Dr. William Bruneau]

No, I don't think so.

It seems to me that what Bramwell said a moment ago about the inability or the unwillingness--at any rate, the incapacity--of the president and the board to listen to Canadians is really the key question.

It would be the same for any other crown corporation. If you go back to the glory days of the 1950s, when we were creating many a crown corporation and Canada was creating one crown corporation after another, the question always was how they would be governed. It was not just how they would be paid for by public tax dollars, but how they would be governed.

It seems to me that the president and the board--and the way they're appointed--are at the centre of this thing. Their unwillingness to listen may have to do with the way they're appointed. Their lack of interest in serious long-term cultural and historical concerns that Canadians have may have to do with that.

You have it within your power to do something about the way presidents and boards of the CBC are appointed. It's also within your power to ask--and, indeed, to insist--that their reasoning be made much more explicit than it is, so that we can criticize it and interact with that reasoning. At the moment, we don't have that power.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

At the risk of getting into a debate, the word “insist” there is probably the crux word. If we don't have the power--in other words, if by legislation we are proscribed from giving direction and the act guarantees the “journalistic, creative and programming independence” of the CBC--there's not much the minister or this committee can insist on.

That is why I'm asking this question. Should there be a change? I suppose it leads to the final thing--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Be very, very short.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

—and that is, should the minister or the government be able to give serious direction—which would lead possibly to the terrible “C” word, censorship—to the CBC and what's going on with the CBC?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Richard.

[Dr. Richard Kurth]

I'd like to add something to the previous discussion. It's relevant to this point also, I think.

It's very important to think of the CBC Radio Orchestra as part of the infrastructure of the CBC and part of its production mechanism; it does enable certain kinds of programming. But reinstating the orchestra is really an infrastructure issue and not so much interference in terms of programming. There is also the CBC mandate to reflect Canadian culture, and I think the music the orchestra performs is part of that.

So I think there are two angles from which your committee could support the orchestra.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Next, Ms. Fry, please.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much.

Bramwell, I meet with you often, but you have never bought me dinner! What is happening here?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!