Canadian Heritage Committee on May 29th, 2008

[Jane Whiteley]

Thank you.

I have no connection with the music industry, with the orchestra, or with the CBC. What I am is someone who has been listening to CBC Radio my whole life, and I'm disturbed, really, by the changes that have been occurring and the changes that are posited.

I live, incidentally, in a small community that is approximately an hour and a half outside Vancouver.

I have six points that I want to make briefly, from my own perspective as a listener. The first one is that it is hard for me to overestimate the importance of the CBC nationally. It's an institution of critical importance, similar perhaps to the railway in the late 19th century. It provides a means of communication in a diverse and spread-out nation that is of great importance, and it's a lifeline in remote communities.

This is an institution that should be supported wholeheartedly by the national government, but over the years, it has been my observation that the CBC has gradually suffered more and more from what I consider to be unwarranted budgetary cuts.

My second point is that it should be a matter of real importance that the most senior management people at the CBC should be people with a very significant commitment to artistic excellence; again, in terms of the changes that are occurring, that appears to me to no longer be the case.

Thirdly, in my opinion, Radio 2 should maintain a focus on serious music. This does not mean a constant reiteration of the top 100 classical hits. There are, in fact, other channels available for that, if it's what people want. Classical music itself is not a monolith; it's not one genre. It has also been my observation that in the past, Radio 2 has not treated it as a monolithic manner. Classical music, to me, is music that covers many centuries, including the present one, and covers many styles. What it is, however, is music that has real intellectual content, most of which has stood the test of time and is performed by musicians of very high calibre. This music often offers challenges to listeners, and it is fit that it does so on this network: it is culture that is worth passing on.

Fourthly, the CBC should have a commitment to the promotion of serious Canadian musicians. Where's the next Ben Heppner or James Ehnes going to get a leg up? It's really regrettable that CBC Records will no longer be assisting artists of this calibre. That, in my opinion, is an abnegation of its responsibility.

Pop performers have other outlets and venues. I don't think Avril Lavigne needed a leg up from the CBC.

It's also interesting that in the recent protests that have occurred, artists who do work in other genres, such as John Mann of Spirit of the West, and the bluesman, Jim Burns, have come out against the changes that are being posited.

With respect to the CBC Radio Orchestra, this is a wonderful ensemble, with a grand history and a small budget. Reaching out to different communities and providing performance venues for new composers and performers is one of the things this orchestra does. I understand that recently they were in the north to great acclaim. It's a terrible shame that any consideration is being given to getting rid of this national institution.

Finally, Radio 2 should not be drifting towards the lowest common denominator, and in spite of what the promotional ads say, to my observation—and I listen every day—this is in fact what they're doing, and it's going to get worse in the fall. The group they're targeting, as far as I can see, is already extremely well served by private radio.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much for that.

Now we turn to Robert Sunter, please.

[Robert Sunter]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

When I joined the CBC in 1976 as head of radio music, there were CBC radio orchestras in Vancouver, Winnipeg, and Halifax. They produced dozens and dozens of studio and remote recordings a year. The stereo network, now called Radio 2, was almost totally dedicated to classical music. CBC Records was established, and not only accelerated the careers of Canadian artists and ensembles nationally and internationally, but also provided an ongoing program source of Canadian music and musicians.

A few months ago, after 30 years, CBC Records stopped making classical recordings. Ironically, the announcement came just before a CBC recording of the Vancouver Symphony with Bramwell Tovey and Canadian violinist James Ehnes won a Grammy Award, perhaps the most important and prestigious award in the world of recording.

When I moved to television in 1984 as associate head of arts, music, and science, CBC TV regularly presented a panoply of performance and visual arts. Programming included operas, operettas, musicals from the Stratford Festival, concerts, recitals, ballets, modern dance programs, and profiles of performers and creators. Every Thursday night there was a program highlighting one of our arts disciplines. Such programs are now very, very rare on CBC Television.

In November, the 70-year-old CBC orchestra will play its last concert. When the former conductor, Sir John Eliot Gardiner, heard the news, he wrote to me and asked, “Who will now fulfill an equivalent function for the new generation of Canadian composers and music lovers, I wonder, and what will now become of all those professional musicians? It's a sad day.”

Radio 2 has significantly reduced a number of orchestral concerts, chamber music recitals, choral concerts, arts profiles, and CBC competitions in its schedule. Let me give you some convincing evidence. The CBC's historical annual financial commitment to the Canadian branch of the American Federation of Musicians, the AFM, was cut in the last negotiated agreement from slightly more than $10 million—which was about what it was when I was head of music 20 years go—to just over $5 million. I recently heard from the AFM that the CBC is currently about $2 million short of meeting this reduced target. Think about that for a moment. With an annual budget of about $1.5 billion, the CBC, our national broadcaster, spent about $3 million on Canadian musicians. I don't know what percentage of the Canadian Heritage department's arts budget the CBC's annual grant comes to, but I have to ask, do you still think this is an effective investment in the arts and artists of this country?

CBC's parliamentary mandate says, in part, “to actively contribute to the flow and exchange of cultural expression”. Compared with the past, there isn't very much flow and exchange going on any more. By September, the only classical music available on Radio 2 will be between 10 a.m. and 3 p.m., when most Canadians are at work or at school. What a way to develop a taste for classical music in future generations.

Look at some of the other things the current CBC Radio executives have done recently. Last year they cancelled Two New Hours, the weekly radio program that showcased and discussed for more than 30 years the music written by Canadian composers and performed by Canadian artists. They have suspended the CBC young composers competition. They have suspended the CBC young performers competition. How many young Canadian musicians and composers will miss the career impetus their participation in these competitions provided in the past? Where in the fall schedule are the programs that many thousands of Canadian listeners rely upon to bring both Canadian and international artists into their homes? This is especially important to those who have limited access or no access at all to live performances in their communities.

The head of radio music promises that starting in September, Radio 2 programming in the morning and evening rush hours, the heaviest hours of the day, will be filled with recordings of the thousands of songs by Canadian songwriters that are not recorded or broadcast by commercial radio stations—probably for very good reasons. The head of radio music and the vice-president in charge of radio and television don't seem to realize that these programming changes will drive away their dedicated listeners, who will not be replaced, let alone exceeded, by new listeners.

I think it's necessary for the government to devise a way in which the CBC can be more effectively held to account. The current situation demonstrates that CBC executives feel free to disregard the concerns not only of listeners and viewers, but also of the Canadian Heritage department. Perhaps Canadian Heritage can consider suggesting to Mr. Lacroix that the present executive director of radio and television—and it's a bad idea, anyway, to combine the two positions—should be replaced by somebody who understands public broadcasting and who knows something about music and the arts.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much for that presentation.

Before we start some questions from this end, I would just ask the members around the table today to introduce themselves.

I will start with Mr. Keddy, please.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Good afternoon. I'm Gerald Keddy. I'm a member of Parliament for South Shore—St. Margaret's in Nova Scotia.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I'm Ed Fast, member of Parliament for Abbotsford.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I'm Jim Abbott, Kootenay—Columbia.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I'm Joyce Murray, member of Parliament for Vancouver Quadra.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I'm Hedy Fry, member of Parliament for Vancouver Centre.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I'm Andy Scott, member of Parliament for Fredericton, New Brunswick.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

I am Luc Malo, member for Verchères—Les Patriotes, on the south shore of Montreal, in Quebec.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I am France Bonsant, member for Compton—Stanstead in Estrie, south of Montreal, in Quebec.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I'm Bill Siksay, from Burnaby—Douglas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

We'll start off the questioning with Ms. Murray, please.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to the panellists for taking the time to prepare those presentations and for their clarity.

I'm a visitor to this committee. I've had the privilege of being here at the last meeting and at this one. As I did at the last meeting, I will disclose my bias as a former Vancouver junior youth orchestra member, as someone who went the Courtney youth music camp three times, and as someone who played in the cape arts board orchestra for a short time.

My summary includes the three issues people are talking about: the funding for the CBC, saving the CBC Radio Orchestra, and the programming on Radio 2. That's probably very simplistic.

I understand this committee has already reached a unanimous recommendation around increasing funding and including funding for infrastructure, so I'm not going to ask about that.

Saving the CBC Radio Orchestra, which I'm fully in favour of and I think is a very important issue, has been debated here in terms of whether this committee even has the ability to recommend specific programming. Certainly the Radio 2 programming decision is one that some members of the committee believe is outside the terms of the committee's work.

However, the principle of publicly supported radio--like CBC--or publicly supported broadcasting is I think clear. It has a mandate to do those things that commercial broadcasting won't do. I mean, that's the point of public dollars being spent on anything, whether it's policing or defence or heritage. It's to provide the things the market won't provide. That seems to me a clear principle.

I would like to ask the panellists this question. If you were to present to this committee one or two very clear principles that they could take forward to the minister and government and say, “These are clear principles that express the mandate of CBC”, principles from which would flow logical decisions around the CBC Radio Orchestra and the foundation of classical programming that most of you are looking for, what might those be?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Would someone like to pick that up and give an answer? You have only about two minutes.

I'll just ask people to please try to keep your questions short so that we can get some answers from our witnesses.

[Dr. Richard Kurth]

I have one very short point. I believe that Canadian heritage extends back into the past and forward into the future, and that the CBC has a duty to present music with that view and not concentrate only on the music of the present--that being an important part of its mandate, but not the only part.

[Gene Ramsbottom]

In my written brief to the committee you will see seven recommendations along the lines just requested--not just two. But first and foremost, I would say that along with reconstituting or institutionalizing the CBC Radio Orchestra would go the entire infrastructure of classical music and Canadian concert music presentation.

Keep in mind that the CBC not only cancelled the Radio Orchestra, but also 11 major programs that went along with it. To resurrect one, you have to resurrect the other. It seems pointless to resurrect just the Radio Orchestra and then have nowhere to sell their programming within the CBC's mechanism of broadcast.

I hope that answers your question.

[Dr. William Bruneau]

You can resume a number of the points that have been made around the table under one principle, and it is that the secretiveness and the arbitrariness of decisions that have been made by the CBC board bother us a great deal. Secrecy and arbitrariness are matters for you to consider in this committee.

Bob has one more thing to say.

[Robert Sunter]

When the CBC was created, the government went out of its way to protect it from political interference. That has become a problem, because it makes it difficult to get the CBC to respond to any outside suggestions on how it should conduct itself. I think the government needs to find some way to address these problems.

[Bramwell Tovey]

I think it's very important that the CBC blog sites are kept open for people to express their opinions. Censoring them is a pathetic way to listen to your stakeholders. Unless they're inflammatory or obscene, every single comment sent to the CBC should be on a CBC blog site.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

I'm going to request that you please state your name before you give your response--as a couple of you have done--so our technicians can make sure we attribute the right statements to the right people. Thank you for that.

Mr. Malo is next, please.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to everybody for being with us this afternoon.

It is clear that for somebody who wants to promote arts and culture, it is interesting to listen to people who tell you they'd like to see an orchestra be more active and to hear on the radio waves more classical music. At the same time, other people tell us that the commercial radio does not broadcast certain other types of music that they would also like to hear on the public air waves. It is very interesting to see all that activity around promoting culture, arts and music.

Yet, we must clarify something. A few statutes govern Radio-Canada, and one of them is very clear. Radio-Canada enjoys total freedom from Parliament. The committee is not allowed to interfere with the daily management of the corporation. I'm trying to find a way to, on one side, fulfil your expectations and on the other, respect the law. I will make a suggestion and you tell me if it makes sense.

After a study made by the committee, we prepared a report which was dealing with the mandate of Radio-Canada in the 21^st century. In this report, we asked the government to prepare a memorandum of understanding with the corporation in which the budgetary items of the corporation would be clearly identified and which would specify the type of services that we wish to offer to the public. This kind of memorandum could mention your concerns. Would it be important for those to be clearly identified and that funding be provided for that?

According to what we heard last Tuesday, some people would like to create a third radio station that would broadcast all the music genres but classical music. All this cost money. Giving more funding to the CBC orchestra, as suggested M. Bruneau, might cost more money.

Could this type of memorandum be something like a safety rail which would help us know clearly where is Radio-Canada/CBC going, so that we don't find ourselves in the situation we have now, where it seems you learned at the last minute that because of a lack of funds, some services must be cut?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Could someone respond to that?

[Gene Ramsbottom]

I refer back to my written submission, of which you have a copy. It covers that. Acknowledging the quest for a seven-year memorandum of understanding for the CBC to get a more predictable funding basis is a laudable thing. But I feel that your committee has been sidelined a little, in that you're giving CBC what it wants without the necessary controls.

I sympathize immensely with what you've done, and I admire that report, which I've read, but look at the date of it. It was submitted to Parliament in February, which means all the work was done before that. Leading up to that, it must have been tacitly understood that CBC's various successful programs, such as the CBC Radio Orchestra and other classical presentations, would continue, because your report calls for building upon the strength and successes of CBC's endeavours to date.

You submitted your report, and lo and behold, all these cutbacks happened in very Draconian swiftness after March 27. As a committee you should be a little stunned about this, and you should look to possibly withdrawing your report for clarification--or the government should send it back to you for clarification, given the amount of public outrage about these changes in the past month that antedate your report.