Canadian Heritage Committee on March 30th, 2009

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Ms. Lavallée, and then Mr. Del Mastro.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

We talked about the study of the report, but there is also my motion. I was wondering when you were considering introducing it.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Richard Dupuis]

Afterwards.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Immediately after or before the study?

[The Clerk]

Before.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I don't require you to make any changes to the body of the report, but I would like to have the Canada Council in, so I can include their testimony in my supplemental report—or whatever you call it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Dissenting report.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I just want a little time. Following this would be fine. I want to add their testimony to my dissenting report, because I believe their testimony will in fact provide some documentation to back up what the government's claims have been.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we will be getting that draft report and we'll look at it on Wednesday and will make whatever changes we want, but we won't approve the report until we see the final copy, right?

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

We don't approve it until we see the final copy, correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think what's been suggested here is a little bizarre. We've had a witness list and we're finalizing a report. He's asking to have other witnesses after we've had our final report, so he can have a dissenting report based on another set of witnesses. His report has to be based on the testimony we heard. We agreed to a witness list. We agreed we were only going to do this for two or three days. I remember Madame Lavallée and Mr. Rodriguez suggesting many, many witnesses, but all of us pared the list down, because we said were going to go on to other business.

So I don't see why at this point we should agree to another set of witnesses just so we can have their view in a dissenting report. We're finishing this report; it's going to be done. If at another point we want to talk to the Canada Council, we can. But testimony was brought forward here, people spoke about the Canada Council, and nobody on the Conservative side questioned that at the time. So it's absurd that we're going to hold a special meeting so he can fit its results into a dissenting report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm going to call the question:

That the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage calls to appear, at its earliest convenience, the following representatives from the Canada Council for the Arts: director, Robert Sirman; chairperson, Joseph L. Rotman; and vice-chair, Simon Brault, to provide information regarding the $13 million the Canada Council for the Arts has allocated to provide funds and resources to the arts community for international promotion and touring, and that the findings be reported back to the House and the vote be a public vote.

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I would just like to add an amendment to that. I would like this hearing to be held prior to the finalization of the report that the committee undertook with respect to international touring.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay, an amendment.

[An hon. member]

That's too much.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I'm not asking for too much; it's entirely reasonable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Chair, again, I think it's entirely disrespectful of this committee. We've asked our researchers to prepare a report based on testimony, and now we're turning it into a kangaroo court. We had a witness list. Everybody could submit to that witness list. Testimony was brought forward. People were given a chance to challenge it at that time.

Now we are finalizing the report. You've given them instructions to finalize the report. Mr. Del Mastro made it clear he would have a dissenting report. Now we're going to have a witness so he can fill it up with a dissenting report. It's getting to the point of absurdity.

I say we vote on the question. We can have them come at a later date, but our report has nearly been finalized. We've given instructions to the clerks. We have to finish that job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Ms. Dhalla.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I think it is important to hear from the Canada Council, but I have two things. I agree with Mr. Del Mastro that he wants to bring the Canada Council forward to allow them to provide testimony, but I think this should have been brought forward beforehand, as Mr. Angus is saying. When we were discussing the list of witnesses, everyone had an opportunity to provide that to the clerk. I don't know why.... Perhaps Mr. Del Mastro can provide us with information as to why they were not called or invited at that particular point in time.

To have the information that they provide now included in the report is asking for a bit too much. We have had a chance to hear from all of the witnesses. The analysts have spent a lot of time putting together the report. I don't want to call forward a set of witnesses so that Mr. Del Mastro and the team can put together their dissenting report. I'm sure they already have the information.

I would be interested in hearing from the Canada Council, and I think we may want to take on Mr. Angus's suggestion that we do it at a later point. Or, alternatively, I think it may be best for the committee to provide a written set of questions to the Canada Council. They can provide us with written information and we can review it at our leisure, versus having them come forward and having the report changed. It's asking for a bit too much and it's not something that we could support.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Contrary to what Mr. Angus has said, I specifically asked questions of the deputy minister when the deputy minister was here with respect to support for international touring provided by the Canada Council and whether she could verify that the Canada Council was in fact receiving an additional $31 million per year under this government. That was a question I specifically put. Unfortunately, that, in my view, is not reflected in the recommendations or the findings of this committee.

Now, it's because I didn't know what the report indicated, and secondly, I didn't know that the recommendations brought forward would be brought forward in such a manner that we wouldn't have an opportunity to actually review the findings or the documentation of the report.

As you well know, Mr. Chair, I did bring this motion previously. I gave notice of this motion prior to the report being completed, prior to being given a draft of the minutes of the meeting, if you will, by the analyst. It was not deemed by the committee.... I don't think I'm saying anything I can't say. It didn't pass. So here I am back in public, asking why am I not allowed to bring this testimony forward to be part of this report?

To say that I'm trying to tack a witness on or I'm trying to bolster my case.... I've been at this for more than two weeks, three weeks, to bring them in as a witness, because I wanted them to come in and back up what the deputy minister had said. As you know, the Canada Council is artists helping artists. We have provided substantially more support for the Canada Council. They are providing money for touring and they're providing money for an awful lot more with respect to the arts. Their testimony is paramount to their support being reflective, in any way, of the reality of arts funding in Canada right now.

If you want to slam the door and say we don't want to hear them before we come forward with this report, then that will also be reflected in both the release I'll put out today and my dissenting report that we don't want to hear from the Canada Council prior to putting forward a report that misrepresents the reality of this government's support for the arts, and specifically international touring.