Canadian Heritage Committee on April 27th, 2009

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Would it surprise you if access to information indicated it was around $76,000?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

No. Do you mean for an overall employee? I think $76,000, but on the television side it may be a bit higher—$84,000 to $85,000. Those are the numbers we work with, yes.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Okay, that's fine.

Obviously, as I've indicated, these are challenging times. Everybody laments job losses—everybody does. But the people in my riding, where the average household income is about $60,000, would probably look at that and ask, how much more in taxes can I pay? How much more do you want me to pay, when you're already paying people more than my entire household makes?

Do you think about that?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Oh, sure, sir, and that's why we keep coming to you and saying that for all the services that CBC/Radio-Canada delivers to Canadians, the cost to Canadians is $34 per person, and that ranks us number 15 out of 18 of the western countries that were surveyed by Nordicity. That's why, when we keep looking at this $34 number for all the services we provide across a country as large as we have, with six time zones and two official languages, we keep saying that this is a number that makes it difficult for us to continue delivering services for Canadians the way a public broadcaster wants to. And that's why we're calling for a memorandum of understanding to be negotiated.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

You have two affiliates operating in Canada—one is in Peterborough, and the other is in Kingston—and you have a number of smaller locations across the country. What's your commitment to these smaller locations, and in particular what is your commitment to the affiliates with respect to programming?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

What we've tried to do at CBC/Radio-Canada is to look at a way to best use our dollars. In the current environment, we've had conversations, for example, in Brandon, where we have told CTV that we can't afford to pay the affiliate fee anymore but will provide them with our own programming free of charge. That is the kind of conversation we had with Brandon.

I'm frankly not into the details of what we've done with the two other stations that you're referring to, but I'm very aware of what happened in Brandon.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, sir.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pablo Rodriguez]

Thank you, Mr. Del Mastro.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for five minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Lacroix, I want to begin by following up a bit on my colleague Mr. Del Mastro, who's very concerned about the highly paid CBC journalists. I'm going to go out and look for some. I worked as a stringer for CBC and got paid, on a good day, $60 a day and $35 for another news item, and if they didn't take it, I was SOL. Certainly the people I know seemed to feel they were doing it out of some kind of charitable commitment to making the world a better place, because the bottom line was pretty lousy. Now, I understand, we can't afford to run stringers in the regions anymore, period. I just want that on the record.

I want to follow up with what you said about regional losses. As you know, it's a very serious issue in our region, and this is not being parochial. Our communities are absolutely dependent on CBC. If they don't have CBC North service, they don't have a voice, period. I hear the number 28%, and I'm doing the calculations across northern Canada, where we took a 50% hit in Sudbury, a 50% hit in Thunder Bay, 100% in northern Manitoba, 100% in Saskatchewan. We don't really get a feeling that those losses were balanced out, because when you take two jobs out of a market like that, you're eliminating the afternoon show. When you eliminate the afternoon show, you're eliminating the entire ability of a vast region the size of western Europe to have arts programming, to introduce northern writers, to bring voices to the region.

So when you're calculating the decision—and I know it's not easy to throw people out of the lifeboat—are you looking at it as a bottom line decision as to where you can make money and where you see yourself as having to bear some kind of service to a region?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Angus, this has been a very difficult time for us. Cuts have not been easy, and coming to the identification of 800 people, or 800 jobs, has been a very difficult exercise.

When we looked at how to deliver our services to different regions we started with certain priorities, and you heard some of the priorities that we talked about. Then we looked at the services that we could actually render in a particular community with what we have. It's obvious that when you have six or seven or eight and you take out three or four of those people from your station, then the number is much bigger than the 18% or 20%.

But we have to look at this on a global basis, on a provincial basis, on a regional basis. What we're trying to do right now is this. We have a voluntary retirement incentive program that we hope will be able to generate some flexibility. We have other programs that we are working hard on to try to generate some dollars. As I told you, one of my important priorities will be to try to look at how we can reinvest some of that money in the regions.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

CBC North, which has the award-winning show for the best morning news and information show in central Canada, has been living on a shoestring for years. I heard Mr. Stursberg's comments on the phone-in show, where he said it was too bad about CBC Sudbury, too bad about CBC Thunder Bay, but there are lots of smaller, modest markets out there that CBC would like to help. I was wondering if maybe he didn't quite have the picture, because when staff in CBC Sudbury or Thunder Bay are looking at their region, they're looking at having to service a region the size of Europe. Yet they're told in the newsroom that CBC is not interested in counting the BBM ratings outside the metropolitan area. So they're basically looking at 30% of the market.

So when you are looking at what you're going to cut, I can see that Mr. Stursberg might think that Sudbury's a fairly small, modest market, but if you're not counting the 70% of listeners who are dependent on it on the James Bay coast and in isolated communities, it says to me one of two things. Either the listeners in those outlying areas really don't count, period, or maybe you're not looking at the full obligations.

When you went into making these decisions, if you're not counting them outside the metropolitan areas, were you fully cognizant of the role they have to play in the listenerships that you're not counting?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

You're raising good points, sir. I would like to remind you that we tried as best we could to protect CBC North. There were only between two and four positions taken out. I can't give you a final number yet.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Eight. In Sudbury, eight. In Thunder Bay--

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Let us define whether you include that in CBC North or not.

In those particular regions right now, we are still waiting for the final counts from the voluntary retirement incentive plans. We have ranges of expenses right now and we have people we're looking at in terms of where they're going to fall. I can assure you that we are very concerned about the way we deliver services to our regions. Everybody has had to contribute. We have cuts across our company.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Just for the record, it was eight in Sudbury and eight in Thunder Bay.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pablo Rodriguez]

Mr. Angus, I've been very strict with everyone, so we will keep on going in the same manner.

We're now up to the fourth and last round.

Usually, we have two speakers during the fourth round: one from the Liberal Party and one from the Conservative Party. But if everyone is in agreement, we could give each party two minutes at the end.

Is that okay? Five, five, and then two minutes each to conclude.

Ms. Dhalla.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

You stated many times during your presentation here that it has been a difficult time for you. It has been a difficult time for the thousands of CBC employees and I think also for Canadians who've suffered the losses. Madame Lavallée was asking you earlier about the fact that you had written to the Prime Minister and you hadn't received a response. You requested bridge financing. You didn't receive that from the government. Do you feel, as the head of the CBC and on behalf of your team, that you've been let down by this government?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Madam Dhalla, what I'm trying to say here today is that CBC/Radio-Canada has a really important mandate. It comes out of the act. We deliver a whole bunch of services to Canadians across the country. We have worked very hard. I have worked very hard with Minister Moore to try to engage our government in a conversation about the services that we render and about the broadcasting motto being broken. I know he's had these conversations with me. We hope we will again have a conversation, and the government will want to have a conversation about the memorandum of understanding, the MOU, that Robert Rabinovitch, at the end of his tenure, raised as being a solution so that Canadians across the country understand the services that are expected from CBC/Radio-Canada and that we are funded for them.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

It's great to engage the minister, and it's great to have the government interested in listening, but ultimately it comes down to results and to action, and when you have laid off over 800 people.... Campaigns are going on across the country of people who are really passionate about this, from Newfoundland, which has lost half the radio production staff.... Sydney is losing a quarter to half its radio production staff; Saint John, New Brunswick, is losing half its radio production staff; in Windsor, their French language radio station is slated to close; in Sudbury, it's half of their radio production staff. In Thunder Bay, the planned cuts are going to create serious doubts about their ability to continue the local afternoon radio show. Thompson, in northern Manitoba, may be closing its CBC Radio North country station and eliminating their stations. Saskatchewan is closing their stations. There are literally many, many closures of stations. There is loss of over 800 jobs. From talking to people, I know my constituents and many other Canadian feel let down by the government because there haven't been the results that are needed.

Can you please provide us from your perspective--you've had a lot of meetings across the country; you've done detailed analysis--what you think Parliament, and in particular this committee, needs to recommend to the government to ensure you have a minister or a government that's not just engaged in listening but actually delivers results for the long term, so that we don't have you here before this committee in the next couple of years because no long-term planning was done? What recommendations would you provide this committee with?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

In the opening statement I made, I wanted to remind everybody that CBC/Radio-Canada, because it gets $1.1 billion or just about from the government, is not insulated from what's happening out there. The incentives and the measures that are being envisaged for the private broadcasters have to include CBC/Radio-Canada. We provide important services. Our CBC television and Radio-Canada television are also impacted by the severe drop in ad revenues.

So when we talk about fee-for-carriage, when we talk about the local improvement fund, when we talk about measures that would be available to all, it has to include CBC/Radio-Canada.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I have one last question before my time is up.

Taking a look at the economic crisis, you've already laid off 800 and closed many stations across the country, which has impacted local programming and the information that local and smaller communities receive. If the government does not provide additional support, can you see more job losses taking place, more stations closing, and Canadians in smaller rural and northern communities not receiving the coverage they need to get?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I'm going to adjust one of the comments you made. We have not closed stations. We have had an issue with the definition of a station in La Ronge and in Thompson, and that's correct, because we could have...and I'll take the blame for that. They are one-person operations. They are important operations in Canada, but we have kept our footprint. That was one of the very important choices we made. We wanted to stay in the communities, and it's really difficult if you close a regional station, if you close a Sydney, if you close a Windsor. Then it's really difficult to ramp it up again. In Windsor, on the French side, we've kept three people, and we are going to try to use the same model on the French side that we cover Alberta and Saskatchewan with. We are going to apply it to Ontario.

So we have tried very hard to keep our geographic footprint. We think this is important. We want to stay in the regions, and this is the message we're leaving with you today.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pablo Rodriguez]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Dhalla.

Ms. Glover, we'll now turn to you.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much.

Once again, thank you for appearing here today. It's very good of you.

I have a few comments, Monsieur Lacroix. Please allow me to make the comments, and then I have a few questions.

I spent almost 19 years as a police officer. I'm quite shocked to hear today, for the first time, that the average wage or salary of a CBC employee surpasses by quite a bit the average amount that a police officer makes, a police officer who puts his or her life on the line every single day. To hear you say that it may be higher than $76,000, or maybe even more than $84,000 on average, when our men and women who are living the news make far less than that and the people simply reporting it are making far more on the taxpayers' dollar, was quite a shock to me.

The other comment I wish to make, sir, is about the $4 million that you speak about when you talk about the bonuses. I assure you that police officers aren't getting any bonuses for doing a good job, and I would hope that all Canadians expect, when we assist corporations, that all employees are expected to do a good job regardless of any kind of bonus.

Those are my two comments, and now I'd like to proceed to questions, sir.

I too have been hearing often from my constituents about this issue. As you know, it is a Conservative government that created the CBC, so we are engaged, and we are committed to the concept that this is something that reflects the Canadian identity. Many of my constituents would argue that they would like to see 100% Canadian content.

It was said in your dissertation that you wanted to keep some key priorities--and I'm going to repeat what you said in your dissertation. The key priorities included keeping radio advertising-free, enhancing new media, protecting our regional footprint, maintaining our distinctive Canadian programming and our cross-cultural initiatives. Well, sir, I am seeing more and more shows like Martha Stewart, Wheel of Fortune, Jeopardy, The Simpsons, and recently we've learned about two reality shows you plan to put on the airwaves, called Battle of the Blades and Super Speller.

I'd like to know how many of these American shows fit into the key priorities that you've indicated you're trying to keep.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Let's talk about Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy, because these are always the two programs that attract most attention because you can't miss them if you watch television on CBC in the evenings.

These two properties are very important to our strategy. One, they add and bring revenues to CBC/Radio Canada that we immediately reinvest in Canadian programming. Second, they serve as raises to our schedules. We use these and they are strategically placed in our programming schedule to bring Canadians—about a million of them watch Jeopardy every night--into our programming schedule, which is all-Canadian in prime time, from 8 p..m. to 11p.m.

Are we happy that we have to use Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune to generate revenue so that we can invest in Canadian programming? The answer is that if I could.... This is not the best of decisions, but they serve important purposes: they generate revenues and they lift our schedules. That's why, madame, they are there.