Evidence of meeting #40 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was apology.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wayne Cole  Procedural Clerk

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Welcome to meeting number 40 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, March 6, 2009, we are studying Bill C-302, An Act to recognize the injustice that was done to persons of Italian origin through their “enemy alien” designation and internment during the Second World War, and to provide for restitution and promote education on Italian-Canadian history.

We move today to clause-by-clause consideration. Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of the preamble in clause 1 is postponed.

The chair calls clause 2.

Mr. Calandra.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I just have a point of order, Mr. Chair, that may perhaps lead into a point of privilege.

I know the committees I've been reviewing outlined specifically the order in which questions are to be asked. None of them at this point have referenced how long the answers need to be. I'm wondering if the Standing Orders outline specifically how long answers are required to be.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

No.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Okay.

Then having said that, Mr. Chair, if you would hear me on a point of privilege, I'd appreciate it.

Last week in this committee the member from Timmins--James Bay twice referred to something that he said I said, which I did not say. He referred twice to witnesses on the record saying that I said no apology was ever necessary. In fact I never said that; I said that I was recounting a story to the member with respect to what other individuals had said to me.

I was further disappointed to see that the member, like a schoolyard bully in grade three, had gone further to suggest inThe Hill Times that the comments recounted to me by the people I had talked about regarding this bill, which I then discussed with the witnesses here, somehow made me a bush league member of Parliament, and he further insinuated that as an elected member I don't have the right to sit on this committee.

Mr. Chair, I don't deny this is a very emotional topic. I have never at any point denied that this is very important to Mr. Pacetti, who brought the bill forward in good faith. I might not like the bill, but I've never questioned his ability to bring it forward and advocate on behalf of the people he wants to help.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, on a point of order, I missed the beginning. Which member is he talking about?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

It was Mr. Angus.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Okay.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I think the member owes an apology to the people I had talked about in my discussions with the witnesses.

I can tell the honourable member that my family started coming to this country in 1955. If my family decides and if the people who have built this country, who've sacrificed so much to build this country, decide differently than that honourable member, have different feelings than that honourable member, and choose to express them through me as the elected member of Parliament, not only for the riding of Oak Ridges--Markham but as somebody who represents a great number of people of Italian heritage in the Toronto area, they should not be insulted. Their word should not be considered bush league. He should consider that they have feelings, perhaps different feelings than he has. He should perhaps reflect on that, and reflect on the fact that we are elected, and we may have different desires and we may have different things we want to push here, but ultimately we have to respect the fact that each of us has the opportunity, by virtue of the fact that we're elected, to push things that are important to us.

As I said as I began, Mr. Chair, this is obviously an extraordinarily emotional discussion for me. To suggest that it's not going to be something that causes frustration or anger at some point is completely wrong.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Be nice and just tell us if you're filibustering for two hours. We'll do something else.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I'd like to continue, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Carry on, Mr. Calandra.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I would ask whether the honourable member from Timmins--James Bay would....

I've gone back over the Hansard as well, actually.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

You're filibustering.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

I've gone back over the Hansard of last Tuesday.

I wonder whether—through you, Mr. Chair, if he's unwilling to do so—we could seek that the honourable member apologize to all of the people he insulted because they have a different point of view. It's somewhat ironic that he's talking about an apology, yet he took his last opportunity here, and in the press, to basically call all of the people who have an opinion different from his bush league for having different feelings on this.

Through you, Mr. Chair, I wonder whether you could ask that the honourable member reflect on the words he said at the last two meetings and consider writing an apology to those people for his words.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Angus, would you like to respond to that, please?

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll keep it short.

I remember very well what I said the honourable member had said, which was, “What's there to apologize for?” He is correct; that was what his uncle said. I refer to that because it was pretty clear that the government doesn't believe there is anything to apologize for, and that's their opinion.

If he felt that I was saying “he said” instead of “His uncle said, 'What's there to apologize for?'”, then I would certainly apologize, if he was misunderstood.

As for his being upset about my comments in The Hill Times, I've been on this committee with the chair for five years. We have a way of working at this committee. Sometimes it's raucous, but we have all kinds of witnesses, and I find that we have a really high level of respect for our witnesses.

I would be rather concerned with my honourable colleague's attempting to use all the citizens of Markham to hide behind. When I said there was bush league behaviour—and I don't know whether that was a direct quote, but I'd say bush league behaviour—it was bush league behaviour from the member; bush league behaviour towards witnesses who came representing the Italian community. Frankly, I was embarrassed. I said I had never seen this guy before he showed up at our committee, and I felt he was very disrespectful to the witnesses.

If he can't take that, well, that's too bad, but he shouldn't use the people of Markham to hide behind and he shouldn't use our committee to attack witnesses who come here in good faith.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Del Mastro.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On the same question of privilege, I really didn't like what was said about the member, with due respect to Mr. Angus. I think if we break down to the point where we're actually calling each other names in the paper.... We've had some incidents recently, but not, I think, referring to the member. I read the article, and I think it actually refers to Mr. Calandra as a bush league MP.

Frankly, I'll acknowledge that some of our questioning of the witnesses who came forward was tough, but it needed to be tough, because we're trying to make a point, and that point is quite simple: that no one group represents all Canadians of Italian descent in this country; they simply don't. I have had no interaction with the Italian congress at all, and I've been a member of my local Italian club for more than a decade; I have served on its board. They don't represent me.

I'm not saying anything negative about them, but I think it was important that....

I'm sorry?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

When you were first elected, you had a supper with them. Come on, don't lie.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

I'm not lying. I'm not lying at all.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

You're better than that.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I do have some calls to make.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

You can go and make your calls if you wish, Mr. Angus. But I think, Charlie, that those comments were out of line.

When witnesses come in.... I chose to use my time to read into the record, because there was no other time to do it, the apology made by former Prime Minister Mulroney, and some people thought that was offensive. I'm not exactly sure it was offensive. I think you have to set the background of what has and has not been done.

To read that somehow as my being rude to witnesses.... I've been on committees all the time where members don't ask a question of the witnesses, and that's how they choose to use their time. I think there has to be an acknowledgment, Mr. Chair, that when members have their time for questioning, they may use it as they see fit. It's not being rude; it's not being bush league.

It just doesn't set a very good foundation for how things are going to go on this bill.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Calandra.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Again, Mr. Chair, I would just like to reiterate that the Standing Orders, obviously, again, make no reference to how long witnesses have to be given to respond to a question. It also does not mention there if there has to be a difference between asking a question or making comment.

When we're talking about a bill such as this one, it would be absolutely unrealistic to expect the son of an immigrant not to come here with an emotional reaction and not to make comment. I wonder if the member would have the exact same feeling on the behaviour that he gave when the minister appeared before this committee, if he would characterize his own behaviour as bush league.

The reality is, Mr. Chair, that he's elected. If that's the way he wants to act when somebody is here and wants to ask questions, that's his right to do so. I certainly don't go out into the public and suggest that he doesn't have the right to represent his constituents the way he wants to represent his constituents. I certainly don't go out in public and, like some grade two kid in the schoolyard, start throwing insults back and forth because that makes me somehow feel better. It went against everything that we've been talking about in this committee with respect to this bill in the last two meetings.

Frankly, I'm not hiding behind the people of Markham, Mr. Chair. As I mentioned in committee, I had the opportunity to speak to many people. I have a very large family and I have a very large Italian community in my community. Many of the people I spoke to had the same feelings that I have with respect to this particular bill.

Do 100% of them? Absolutely not. Are some of the people I spoke to in favour of what Mr. Pacetti has brought forward? Sure, they are. But I've been elected to represent all of those people. He is calling me a bush league member of Parliament, and the comments that I brought forward, through those people, as being bush league somehow, because they are immigrants and they aren't always able to speak on their own behalf. Perhaps my uncle, who has been in this country since the late fifties, might have liked to have come and spoken to this, but he still doesn't have the best grasp of the language. He's probably a little bit frightened to do something like that. Your comments, basically, threw in his face his inability to do that, threw in the face of every single person I had spoken to leading up to this that somehow they are unworthy of expressing their opinions through their elected member of Parliament because their opinion is different from yours.

I think you owe them a better apology than that. You owe them an apology in public and in this place for your comments. Perhaps you can reflect on that in the future. There are a lot of individuals out there who don't necessarily agree with you, who have a difference of opinion, who might want to reflect those opinions through their member of Parliament. You might want to reflect in the future on how you express your disagreement.

I can assure you that when my father came here, he didn't speak a word of English; my uncles didn't speak a word of English, and they were able to build extraordinary things in this country. They did a hell of a lot for this country, as have all immigrants from all over, not just Italians. And when you tell them that their comments are unworthy of Parliament or of a committee of Parliament, you throw it in the face of everybody who's sacrificed so much to come to this country. I think perhaps that's what you should reflect on, not the ridiculous apology, or purported apology, that you just gave.