Evidence of meeting #28 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was book.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael O'Hearn  Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers
Jeannette Kopak  Director, Business Development and Operations, Great Northern Way Campus
Rebecca Ross  Coordinator, Digital Initiatives, Association of Canadian Publishers
Jean-Pierre Blais  Assistant Deputy Minister, Cultural Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage
Alain Beaudoin  Director General, Information and Communications Technologies branch, Department of Industry
Pamela Miller  Director General, Telecommunications Policy Branch, Department of Industry

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 28th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. It is November 4, 2010. We are here pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) for a study on the opportunities and challenges in emerging and digital media.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. This is our 28th meeting, this Thursday, November 4, 2010.

We are here pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) for a study on the opportunities and challenges of emerging and digital media.

We have representatives from two organizations on our first panel today. From the Association of Canadian Publishers we have Mr. O'Hearn, who is director of the University of Ottawa Press, and Madam Ross, coordinator of digital initiatives. From the Great Northern Way Campus, via video conference, we have Madam Kopak, who is director of business development and operations.

Welcome to all of you.

We'll begin with an opening statement from the Association of Canadian Publishers.

3:30 p.m.

Michael O'Hearn Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Association of Canadian Publishers represents the interests of 125 Canadian-owned English language book publishers from across the country. It provides advocacy; promotes professional development; and fosters collaboration, most notably, over the past two years, in the production of digital content.

The transformation of publishing processes from traditional to digital is well advanced in editing, design, typesetting, printing, order processing, metadata management, and e-book production, but we are still at the early stages in developing e-book pricing models and in digital marketing of both printed books and e-books.

ACP has several goals in this digital environment, and I will enumerate and describe four of them here.

The first is to maximize the revenue potential of e-books.

Canadian publishers have eagerly embraced opportunities to convert their content into digital format, particularly with the growing popularity of e-readers for general interest and even academic reading. Dozens of Canadian publishers have already produced marketable works in the early stages of this e-book phenomenon, and many more are now engaged in this market. The challenge now is to move from the conversion of content into digital files to the creation of content in digital format. As this new revenue stream opens up for publishers around the world, it's vital that Canadian publishers be able to take full advantage of it.

The second goal is to maximize the potential of digital technology in raising awareness of Canadian books in print, digital, and all other formats. Traditional ways of selling books are becoming less effective, independent bookstores are closing down across the country, newspapers are dropping or sharply curtailing their book review sections, and our national book chain is further reducing the space it devotes to books relative to other merchandise categories. And also, e-books tend to cost much less than traditional paper books.

At the same time, technology is creating new ways of promoting and selling books. Online retailers such as Amazon carry a much wider inventory than traditional stores; blogging offers up all the critical opinion and debate of newspaper reviews; social networking functions as word-of-mouth publicity; publishers' and authors' websites can generate attention for Canadian books and facilitate sales; and a new portal currently in development, called Canadian Bookshelf, will make Canadian-authored titles from all publishers much more discoverable on the web, much easier for teachers to integrate into their libraries and course materials, and more accessible for any reader anywhere in the world.

This wholesale change in the way the public learns about books, seeks them out, and acquires them is transforming the business practices of the book industry, and Canadian publishers must be ready and able to exploit these opportunities.

The third goal is to participate in the development of new business models for book publishing and distribution. With the advent of the digital era, retailers and publishers are throwing out old pricing and discount structures, rewriting contracts, and inventing new ways of doing business. We wish to seize this opportunity to shape our market environment before larger, foreign-based companies do it for us. We must have the capacity to experiment with new structures that reflect Canadian realities and benefit Canadian authors, publishers, and readers.

A fourth objective for the ACP is to increase the presence of Canadian books in Canadian schools. In the past 15 years we've seen a decline of investment in school libraries as well as a decline in the proportion of Canadian-published books in these diminished collections. Our children need to hear Canadian stories, told in Canadian voices, to learn the history and culture of their own country and to understand the issues that shape their own communities. New technology is allowing us to promote Canadian books to this market, and we must make the most of this opportunity.

Looking at the role of government, we feel that we can see perhaps three strategies that we certainly would support. The first is to protect the value of intellectual property assets with solid copyright legislation. As many of you know, many Canadian publishers are worried about expanding the definition of “fair dealing” to include education, as is proposed in Bill C-32, and we look forward to working with government in the months ahead to ensure that Canadians--as consumers, as creators, and as producers--have a better understanding of the role of copyright in all aspects of their lives and in Canada's place in the digital world.

The second strategy or support that could come from government is the support of risk. I think the fast pace of change in the digital environment requires bold initiatives, willingness to experiment, and ability to learn from all outcomes, good or bad. The stakes are high, and the financial resources in a small business or small-margin industry are very limited. New solutions are required for the challenges of new formats and new business models. We believe that public investment programs must be flexible enough and strategic enough to support the risks that small businesses must take on in finding and building these new solutions.

Finally, we could certainly see government helping to facilitate access to capital, specifically through more broadly based funding programs, links to private investment, perhaps a loan guarantee program, and a federal tax credit for digital and print books.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much, Mr. O'Hearn.

We'll have an opening statement now from Madame Kopak.

3:35 p.m.

Jeannette Kopak Director, Business Development and Operations, Great Northern Way Campus

Thank you for inviting me. I'm sorry I couldn't be there in person. I'm in Ottawa next week, but not this week.

I am the director of business development for the Centre for Digital Media, which is an institution owned by the four universities in Vancouver. It was originally set up with seed money from the provincial government. We are now three years old and have 50 graduates. Eight companies have spun off from us, and I think we're a Canadian success story. I also think we are the new world of digital media.

I don't have a formal opening statement. I just want to talk about how exciting the future is and the potential for Canada to be a real leader in this area, based on the examples of our students.

Our students come from all over the world and all over Canada. Some come from computer science, but we also have somebody who is a paleontologist. They come from a broad sector. They all work together on teams and produce projects for outside clients and outward-facing, for lack of a better word, people who pay us money to produce things for them.

Just before I came here, I met with six of our project teams to talk about issues and delivering, and I want to give you some background on what those projects are so that you can see how exciting this is and see the great breadth of what we can produce.

The first project is called Nom Nom Rider and Banana Samurai. It's produced for the British Columbia Innovation Council and Microsoft. It's basically a game for elementary school students. It's going to be launched on Monday on the new Windows Phone 7, and it's to teach them how to eat properly: if you eat bad food and you don't exercise, you eventually explode. It's based on the old idea of Mario Brothers. It's really cool, and the students we've tested it on love it. I just showed it to Telus, and Telus is really interested in bringing it into the market in both B.C. and Alberta. That's one little project.

Another project we're working on is something for the men's health initiative of B.C. The mandate of that project is to extend the healthy living lifespan of men by 10 years. They're doing a massive social media project using video and games to teach 20-something men that attitude is actually the reason they don't live as long as women. It has a lot of edge, and we're getting some really cool feedback from both DDB and Cossette Advertising.

These are just some of the projects we're working on.

A third project uses a science fiction novel to develop an alternative reality game for a small, independent production company in Toronto. They are producing a game as well as doing some artwork for the television series that's coming out of this science fiction novel.

Another one we're doing is called “Making It Work”. Basically it's an e-learning manual to show people living with rheumatoid arthritis how they can actually work. It has a combination of animation and full-motion videos--real, live video.

We're doing a project called Gold Mountain for the UBC history department and the Barber centre at UBC. Its purpose is to teach Canadians, primarily high school students, about Chinese history in Canada. Instead of doing the traditional web portal, we're actually building a traditional Chinese town in virtual reality in the Cariboo, and it's going to be based on game principles.

Finally, the other project I just touched on was a project we're doing with BigPark, a game company that was just acquired by Microsoft. We're doing some R and D development on HTML5, which is the platform that will be running on the iPad and the iPhone.

That's just to give you some excitement about where we can take digital media. I could talk all day about our projects--we've got over 50--but I just wanted to give you a flavour of what this country can produce in a very short period of time. It's a really exciting future.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much, Madam Kopak.

We'll have about 45 minutes of questions and comments from members of this committee, beginning with Mr. Rodriguez.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon to both of you.

Thanks for being with us.

Ms. Kopak, is the interpretation working properly?

3:40 p.m.

Director, Business Development and Operations, Great Northern Way Campus

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Perfect, thank you.

Mr. O'Hearn, you said that e-books cost less, which we already know. What is the impact for authors and creators of the sale of their works in e-book format rather than as books?

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

You want to know whether there is an advantage?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

No. What is the impact? There may also be advantages.

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

It depends. It's not clear for the moment. Ninety-five per cent of the books we sell are books in paper format. Digital book prices are slightly lower. Production costs are virtually the same. You have to do page lay-outs, etc.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

However, there is no printing on paper.

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

That's true. Generally, paper does not represent more than about 20% of the cost of a book. We can save a little with digital books because we don't need paper or storage. We save on transport.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

It may be 30% or 40%. Ultimately, I assume authors or creators receive the same amount for their works.

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

Yes, but it's generally a percentage of the retail price—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

So they lose money.

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

Or net sales revenue. Yes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

That means this isn't good news in the long term.

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

It's not necessarily bad news. However, the relationship between publishers and authors isn't clear. Some things are obviously changing. For example, in the area of university books, we generally pay copyright royalties based on net revenue. That may change in future, but it's not clear.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

That's it.

That leads us to a question you touched upon. I don't want to go into too much detail with regard to copyright, since we're going to debate that later. What's in the bill is important for the field of education. There are concerns. We definitely share some concerns with regard to the inclusion of a cultural exemption because we can't yet define exactly what is fair and what the scope of the exemption is. Isn't that correct?

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

Yes, you're right.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

For example, the business case you're advancing with regard to universities and colleges might not be realized, and your revenue sources could—

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

You'll definitely be coming to testify before the committee on that subject.

3:45 p.m.

Director, University of Ottawa Press, Association of Canadian Publishers

Michael O'Hearn

Yes, that's one of the problems. I can take a step back in order to give you an idea of what we're doing in our association. We've decided to conduct an experiment with—