Evidence of meeting #39 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was acta.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Vallerand  Executive Director, Coalition for Cultural Diversity
Daniel Drapeau  Counsel, Smart & Biggar, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Okay.

On the issue of telecom, for example, before Maxime Bernier's decision in 2006, telecom was considered an issue of national sovereignty. But the issue of broadcast is tied into telecom because we're now dealing with four or five players that control your cellphones, your cable, and your Internet access, and now they are the content providers.

Any of these very large giants in Canada would probably be a perfectly reasonable medium-sized takeover for one of the large European telecom players. So are we saying that under the exemption on cultural products we would include our telecom and ISP vertically integrated industries? Or would we say that broadcast would be open? Again, where do we start drawing the line in terms of cultural diversity versus economic competition?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Charles Vallerand

Well, what I've understood is that the minister made it clear that foreign ownership or investment from Europe would not...you know, the policy remains, so that's one area. But when I was alluding to whether we should revise the exemption clause to consider new forms and new ways.... I mean, we now have the new media fund, and that obviously looks to the future and how audiovisual and new media forms sort of coincide and work together. But I don't have the answer; I have the question.

I don't have the answer. What's the boundary? Right now, telcos and software, for instance, are not within the sort of narrow definition of cultural industries. That's certainly not the case in the existing bilateral trade agreements or the way the exemption clause was drafted, but that doesn't mean, going forward, that it cannot be.

Again, my word of caution was, how would that impact on past...? Oh, it was not in there, so therefore....

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

The broadcast exemptions were looked at, at the GATTs, as an issue of trade, but it comes to us in terms of cultural policy because we have very clear standards for what's broadcast, being Canadians, so we ensure Canadian voices on public airways. But it has been challenged at the GATTs, so even if we could separate telecom, which I'm not sure we can now that they're vertically integrated, are you looking at saying, under the cultural exemption, that we have certain delivery mechanisms to ensure vital cultural industries broadcast—for example, publishing? Are we talking about the industries themselves? Are we talking about the products they create?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Charles Vallerand

Well, we've touched the surface of how far we should go into this, but obviously these are industries. It's like book publishing and sound recording. It's sort of a long list of industries. In fact, what you want to secure is a capacity to create content and to have policies and measures to support content, ether production or access of distribution. But how do you define that? Is there a need for an opening line that says that everything that has to do with original content that is Canadian and meant to be made accessible either...should it be or could it be technologically neutral? I don't have the answer to that; I have a question.

In terms of telco, broadcasting, and so on, these serve various functions in terms of distribution and access, maybe not in terms of content production. Therefore, even telcos will eventually rely on broadcasters and producers and sound industries to produce the content that goes on their wires. So could you say they're part of the package or not? Probably not, because they're carriers. They're not producers of content.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Would the European Union have domestic tax incentive policies for film production? Is that the case?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Charles Vallerand

Yes, I believe so.

4 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Because we have Telefilm, the Canada Media Fund, and our other funding agencies, you trigger tax dollars based on a certain scale in terms of Canadian involvement, and sometimes it seems somewhat arbitrary what is Canadian and what isn't. Is it the actor? Is it the producer? Those can trigger international agreements with France or with England to do co-productions. That's all fine, but it's the question of...within our own domestic sphere, in order to have a domestic industry we've made the decision nationally that we have domestic delivery vehicles, and I would think the Europeans would be very interested in getting their telecom, their broadcast, their main players moving in on that jurisdiction. So are you going to come forward with recommendations on where this exemption needs to be defined, because it seems going into trade, we're going to have to have a pretty clear position?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Charles Vallerand

Well, we first have to secure the exemption itself, as it stands, before we are moving forward on any new proposals or any reconfiguration of the clause itself. Let's win the day on that first, and let's secure the grounds that we have secured thus far.

In terms of the audiovisual, I would venture to say that probably audiovisual is the best way to capture the new forms of media expression, because they tend to flow out of that sort of function, rather than telecommunications. Maybe I stand to be corrected on that. So I would...sorry.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

No, go ahead, finish your thought.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Charles Vallerand

If there is a revision of sorts, that's where I would see it coming from, rather than saying that telco has to be brought into the fold and defined as culture-creating content.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much, Mr. Angus.

Mr. Del Mastro.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I have a couple of things. First of all, you should know that I've always been of the opinion that this conversation should be happening at the international trade committee, where they actually deal with international trade and the various treaties that have been signed over time. This is the Canadian heritage committee, and I'd love to be talking about things like the War of 1812, but instead we're here debating the Canada-EU trade negotiations, which I'm sure members are interested in.

I certainly see the incredible importance of signing bilateral trade agreements, not just on things like manufactured goods and obviously other industrial exports, financial or otherwise, but certainly for heritage and cultural exchanges as well. I think everyone here would agree that while we do have a business relationship in the arts with Europe, it could always grow. I think one of the great ways to grow that is to expand our relationship with them.

Notwithstanding all of those things, I really appreciate your appearing here today and providing the presentation you've made.

Could you just tell us, what was the motivation behind ACTA in the first place? Why did we sign this? What are its benefits? How has it worked? Are there things that you would improve? Perhaps you could just give us a little background on these sorts of things.

4 p.m.

Daniel Drapeau Counsel, Smart & Biggar, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

I'm the ACTA spokesperson. I addressed those questions in my opening statement, so perhaps if we could direct the questions on the EU agreement...and then when my turn comes, I'll answer those questions.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Sure. No problem.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

There's only one panel today. This panel is over at 4:30. This is your opportunity to address questions on the issue the member has asked about.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

If you would like, Mr. Drapeau, we'll have a second round of questions, and I'd be happy to give you the rest of my time to make your presentation. Then we'll have another opportunity. Would you like that?

4 p.m.

Counsel, Smart & Biggar, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Daniel Drapeau

It's really whatever the chair directs.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Just to clarify, were you expecting to make a separate 10-minute opening statement?

4 p.m.

Counsel, Smart & Biggar, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Daniel Drapeau

I can cut it down to five minutes for you, but I was expecting to make an opening statement.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Well, my apologies. We had set aside only an hour for the both of you together.

4 p.m.

Counsel, Smart & Biggar, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Daniel Drapeau

I'll be quick.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Please use my time, because it all dealt with that.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

That's okay. We'll get back to you, Mr. Del Mastro.

Mr. Drapeau, why don't you go ahead with five minutes for opening remarks about your role in the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, and then we'll continue with questions from members.

4 p.m.

Counsel, Smart & Biggar, Coalition for Cultural Diversity

Daniel Drapeau

My opening statement will address some of the questions you've put forth.

First of all, I'd like to thank you all for this opportunity to assist you. I would like to thank Mr. Vallerand for allowing me to share some of his speaking time, because I am not a member of the Coalition pour la diversité culturelle.

My name is Daniel Drapeau. I am counsel with the law firm, Smart & Biggar. I conducted my first seizure of counterfeit goods 13 years ago and I've been active in that field since then. I'm also the past president of the Intellectual Property Institute of Canada's anti-counterfeiting committee, which I've represented within the IP Working Group of the Security and Prosperity Partnership with Canada, the United States, and Mexico.

One thing I noticed during my practice is that there's really something that does not work with the Canadian anti-counterfeiting system. When I took over the presidency of the anti-counterfeiting committee, I noticed that nothing is moving legislatively; hence, my interest in being here today.

Two years ago I took a year off, and as part of that year off, I met with various people in the anti-counterfeiting community: people at the World Intellectual Property Organization; people at the World Customs Organization; people at the Union des Fabricants and the Comité national anti-contrefaçon in Paris; and also rights holders, which are my clients.

I wanted to get a continental European perspective on how Canada is seen in the anti-counterfeiting world. We get beaten on the head quite often by the Americans, but I was wondering, maybe the Americans are exaggerating because we're always on their special watch list. Unfortunately, what I can report to you is that other countries don't see us any better than the Americans do.

When Mr. Vallerand invited me to share his speaking time, I was keen to put this opportunity to good use. Consequently, I will present my thoughts on the weaknesses of the Canadian system, throw out some suggestions for correcting these shortcomings and then talk to you about how the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, or ACTA, can help. I have read the transcript of your January 31 meeting.

I will be in a position to provide you with some answers to questions that were made then but to which answers were not provided.

What is a counterfeit? It's important for you to understand what a counterfeit is, because a lot of people are going to try to confuse you by referring to things that are not counterfeits as counterfeit.

A counterfeit is a fake product bearing an indication that would lead the consumer to believe that it comes from a source from which it does not come. A classic example would be a fake Lacoste polo shirt. It's not made by Lacoste but it has a little alligator on it. You can find a host of other products. When I started my career, I did luxury goods. Now I do electrical boxes.

It's important to note that counterfeits are not grey goods. Grey goods are authentic goods that come into Canada in violation of the Canadian distributors' rights. That's what the Supreme Court decision in Euro-Excellence two years ago was all about. That's not counterfeit. But these items will often be confused with counterfeits.

Nor are counterfeits goods that bear a trademark that is confusingly similar to the genuine one, say, some other form of reptile besides the little alligator. These are not counterfeits. Counterfeits reproduce the trademark.

The reason I place emphasis on this is that it's really pretty cut and dried. You don't need to debate this ad nauseam. It's goods that are lying, basically.

As a parallel to counterfeits, you'll also hear about piracy. Piracy is the unauthorized copying of a work—like software, a book, or a movie. That was partly addressed right after Arnold Schwarzenegger paid us a visit in Canada. That's not what I'm here to talk to you about today.

ACTA is an initiative that was launched in 2006 by the Japanese and the American governments. One question that was asked at the January 31 hearing is, why was this done outside of WIPO? WIPO is the United Nations agency for the protection of intellectual property.

There's a simple answer to that question. WIPO, at least as far as anti-counterfeiting efforts are concerned, is paralyzed by a north-south conflict. The north wants to have protection on IP. The south wants to have access to IP and protection of traditional knowledge and traditional culture. Things aren't moving at WIPO in respect of anti-counterfeiting. Also, WIPO can only suggest. It doesn't have un pouvoir contraignant.

Another question asked on the 31st is, why was this done behind closed doors? This is a criticism that has been levied against the act of process quite frequently.

The answer is very simple. It enables countries with often diverging views of intellectual property protection to discuss the issue more openly.

The real answer as a Canadian is that it's a lot less embarrassing for us if the comments are made privately than if they're made publicly.

There have been some comments that ACTA was brought about to bring Canada in line. ACTA is now at a stage where the final text was approved in Tokyo in October 2010. The parties that we expect will become signatories are Australia, Canada, the EU, New Zealand, the U.S., and Switzerland, but also Mexico, Morocco, the Republic of Korea, and Singapore, so two Asian countries and two countries that are not part of the first world.

As you can see, there are a lot of countries that act in the counterfeiting world that are not present among those signatories. The agreement is currently in the process of being translated into the languages that will be considered official, and one would assume that after that the treaty will be adopted.

This treaty is divided into a number of chapters. The meat of the treaty is found in chapter 2, which itself is divided into four sections. Section 2 is on civil enforcement, so here you're talking about the work that I do, obtaining injunctions, obtaining damages, and doing civil seizures. The next chapter deals with border measures. So what does customs do? We have big problems in Canada in terms of the weakness of our customs program in terms of anti-counterfeiting. I'll talk about that later. The next section talks about criminal enforcement, and I'll go into that in more detail a little later. Finally, there's a section that was also added with respect to the digital environment. This section deals with Internet service providers and the circumvention of anti-copying devices.

My comments will focus on this chapter 2. I thought it would be interesting for you to know what the link is between current legislation in Canada and ACTA and where we're going. Four years ago, I testified before the parliamentary committee on industry, science, and technology. I identified for the committee what doesn't work in the Canadian anti-counterfeiting system, and I provided recommendations as to how to make our system better.

All my recommendations were adopted by the committee. Four years later, I can tell you that we're no further advanced. However, I'm pleased to report that my recommendations are found in ACTA, so this should help us remedy our system. So I think ACTA will actually help us make our anti-counterfeiting system better. What I deplore is that we're completely behind the curve. While we should be a leader, we're really a follower here, and actually a follower that's been dragged along.

I hope you all have my handout. Do you?

February 7th, 2011 / 4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Yes, the chair has distributed them.