Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 11th, 2012

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I honestly think some of these critiques are a lag from a couple of years ago when I absolutely admit that the system was, according to many employers, grinding to a halt with the two-step LMO work permit process. We've seen big improvements since then.

I'll be honest with you: the reason we brought in the A-LMO is that I met with the video game manufacturers and other companies who were pulling their hair out about the processing delays. That's why we brought in the accelerated labour market opinion. Maybe it takes a while for them to realize that things are moving more quickly.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I don't know if I got that impression or if that was part of the deal. I think it was part of a more complex issue. Quite frankly, I'm not sufficiently familiar with your department to offer the same critique. I do wish HRDC all the best in the world, because I know they're under a lot of stress right now in other parts of the department for which you cannot answer. I understand that.

However, I think that in this particular case and in many cases, as I think my colleague may have brought up earlier, the strain on the system is stemming from HRDC, and I hope it is overcome.

To you, sir, I throw the last 10 seconds.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

On this point, I would emphasize that the labour market opinion is free of charge to the employers. I think that's a problem because—correct me if I'm wrong—about 60% of the LMOs that are issued are not used. Guess what? When you offer people free stuff, they take a lot of it. If we put some kind of a modest user fee on the LMO, I know that employers would be happy to pay it. They're keen to bring these people in, right? If we could put a modest user fee on the LMO, we would reduce the number of merely speculative applications that they don't really need; that would reduce the volumes, and we would increase revenues that could be used to improve service.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Young is next.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today and putting in the time. It's very valuable to this committee.

I'm assuming you've met with Ubisoft at some time. Were they one of the companies you had a chance to meet with in Montreal?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I think so.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

They're actually an immigrant company. They came here as a small group and started in Montreal. I guess it was over ten years ago. They have now grown to 3,000 employees. They are world leaders. It's amazing. They were here, and we learned a lot.

I'll read you a quote from Luc Duchaine, who is their communications director. He said:

When we talk about immigration, it's good to train newcomers, but at the same time, if we want to remain competitive, we need that critical mass of senior people.

I think we've reached a level right now, and I'll speak for Montreal at least, where it's starting to get difficult. They're not multiplying themselves.

You were commenting on all the young people who play video games. My son, who is 25 now, doesn't play so much anymore, but I watch, and the games are totally engaging. I don't think playing a game is the same skill as creating a game. The programmers are the ones; they have programmers they will try to bring from another country who can come in immediately, and everything revolves around the programmer, including actors, musicians, and everybody else to put together a project. They are the key ones.

A number of other witnesses who came before the committee consistently said that the entertainment software industry needs temporary foreign workers. However, as you know, some of the members of the opposition have suggested that we have no need for this program. Now I'm mystified.

Could you comment on whether this program prioritizes foreign nationals over Canadians and why the opposition would advocate a position that goes against what the industry leaders are telling this committee?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I think you raise a legitimate question, Mr. Young, because I get questions in the immigration committee and in the House all the time as to why we have any temporary foreign worker program, but then I get letters every day from members of Parliament from all parties—maybe excepting Ms. May; I can't recall any from her, but certainly all of the recognized parties—asking me to help accelerate work permits to access temporary foreign workers for employers in their constituency. There seems to be a bit of a double message here, and I'm frankly confused.

Here's the reality: I think anyone who is in touch with employers in this or many other sectors of our economy realizes that labour shortages are not fictitious. They are a very serious challenge with the growth of many industries. To give you one example, amazingly, from the Kitchener-Waterloo high-tech IT corridor, I've met with a consortium of major employers in the region who tell me that at any given time they are looking for about 2,000 people. They're short about 2,000 highly skilled IT workers in that one IT corridor alone, and that's even with the layoffs happening at RIM.

When you look at the needs in the video game industry, you see downtown Toronto IT companies desperate for people with specialized skills. This is the reality we're facing: acute labour shortages. Some people, perhaps even some who are in this room now, suggest that we shut down the temporary foreign worker program entirely; we argue that would be massively irresponsible, because it would be fatal to a lot of these companies, which would move abroad.

I'll close with this. I'm sorry to go beyond video games, but it's a broader context. I was talking to the CEO of the second-largest auto parts manufacturing company in Canada the other day, with 17,000 employees. He said they would probably expand to have 20,000 if they could satisfy their labour shortages.

I know it's hard to get our heads around the paradox here: we have 7%-plus unemployment, yet companies are saying they can't find people who are skilled for the work. What we're trying to do—and no one's ever going to hit the balance perfectly—with the temporary worker program is to find the right balance that says to the employers, “Go to Canadians first; train up Canadians and do everything you can to bring them in, but if at the end of the day you can't find qualified Canadians to do work like in this video game industry, we're not going to force you to move abroad because of the problem of the labour shortage.”

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

We had, for example, Sheridan College in here. They're doing everything they can to train the young people so they can have these skills that the industry needs, but it's an uphill battle, so they're growing, being creative, and doing what they have to do. It's not as if they're sitting on their hands.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Can I develop this one other point, Mr. Young, that you've hit on?

There are a lot of people in the labour unions and perhaps even in Parliament who have tried to create a perception of the temporary foreign worker program as basically the organized exploitation of vulnerable, low-skilled temporary foreign workers who are all being massively underpaid, and it's all Dickensian factory drudgery and everything. This is ridiculous. This is an urban legend that's been cultivated by some interest groups.

The reality is that only 8% of the 190,000 temporary foreign workers given entry to Canada last year were in the conventional low-skilled category. I think another 11% were in the seasonal agricultural worker program, which is absolutely a sine qua non of the agricultural industry now.

The vast majority of temporary foreign workers are either highly skilled, like the people we're talking about here, or people coming on their working holiday programs, like young French and Aussies and Kiwis, who end up working in the service industry and in the tourism sector, etc. Some of them find jobs in sectors like this and stay as permanent residents.

This is an opportunity for me to clarify some of the misconceptions on this issue.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned that Alberta, under their temporary foreign worker annex, has the authority to identify workers. Does Ontario have that authority? Is there a similar working agreement with Ontario?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Are the other provinces in the same status or in progress or—

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I don't have a full list, but it's only Alberta and Ontario at this point, outside of Quebec, I believe, although I've encouraged my provincial counterparts to pursue temporary foreign worker annexes in our federal-provincial agreements so that they'll have this flexible tool.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

You talked about the Canadian Experience Class as a path to permanent residency for high-skill workers and international students. Could you please elaborate on how this works, perhaps with an example?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes. I recently had an event with Mr. Gaurav Gore, who obtained his permanent residency three months ago as the 20,000th permanent resident coming through the Canadian Experience Class. He came to Canada from India and I think did his MBA at the University of Toronto. He immediately got a job with one of our chartered banks and he's making, I think, $70,000 a year.

He did his master's degree here; then he did a year of work and qualified for permanent residency, and he got it in eight months, which I have to tell you is like light speed by CIC standards in the past. That's the past we're leaving behind. Eight months should be the new norm, and it's great.

Now this guy is here with his lovely young wife, they're making fantastic money, they're doing a job that's in demand, and he's got a Canadian education. He's already integrated. I keep saying that is what I see as the future of immigration in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Young.

Now we're into five-minute rounds. First up is Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

Minister, it's great to see you. We did miss you last week, but I know miscommunications happen.

First of all, I just want to get it on record that at least the official opposition is not opposed to temporary foreign workers. What we do have some concern about is the process, some of the grantings of the LMOs that have occurred, and the categories of people who are coming in. We also have a great deal of concern around the need for training to grow the skill sets here among our youth and among those who are not so young as well.

Today I want to expand a little bit on the problems we are seeing with the temporary foreign workers.

Three years ago, the Auditor General identified some serious problems with this program, and the immigration committee also studied the problems and made a number of recommendations. Despite years given to fixing it, the program still appears to be a mess. Mismanagement of this program has put jobs for Canadian workers at risk on one hand, and in the case of the video game industry it also not responding adequately to the needs of businesses.

In 2009 the Auditor General recommended that CIC and HRSDC implement better mechanisms to ensure the integrity and effectiveness of the temporary foreign worker program. The departments responded in agreement and suggested that such mechanisms were already being implemented. However, recent events in B.C. regarding HD Mining have again called into question the integrity of the program, and a review of the program has been announced.

Minister, do you think it's time to call back the Auditor General to look at how or if the recommendation have been implemented? As well, have you considered asking the AG to conduct an independent review of the temporary foreign worker program?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

No, I haven't considered that. I don't decide the work plan of the Auditor General. They choose which programs to audit from time to time, and we're always happy to collaborate when they focus on a matter in my purview.

However, I think we just heard the contradiction and the mixed messages I get: on the one hand, you want faster, streamlined processing for the video game industry, but at the same time you want a more rigorous assessment of labour market opinions. You can't have it both ways. Either we push every application and apply rigorous analysis, or we streamline some.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Minister, could I clarify what I said?

What we are seeing and what the government has admitted is why there is a review about the process that was put into place for the B.C. mining. We've also heard from the video business industry that even under the old rules, it was taking a lot longer than the specified timelines. That's what I'm repeating. There is no contradiction there; that's just an acknowledgement of what exists right now.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Well, I think what you're saying is that it's too easy and it's too hard.

I'll tell you frankly that what I hear from employers consistently is that the process is too bureaucratic and too slow-moving. That's why we tried to accelerate low-risk LMO applications, but then I hear from others that we should be radically reducing the number of LMOs that are approved. We're trying to hit the right balance here.

With respect to HD Mines, that was not fast-tracked through the A-LMO process. Those were conventional assessments, and I've actually personally reviewed them. I can tell you that officers at Service Canada spent a great deal of time going over those applications. We've asked that they go back and take a look. Was a third language a requirement that seems odd to us? We want to make sure that the process is being rigorously followed by officials.

However, we are trying to strike the right balance. I hope you see, through this study, that we have to be facilitative for employers as well.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

As you know, the human resources minister has announced a review of the program, and she didn't announce a review of the program because everything was working. She has announced a review because she has heard concern being expressed, but it's very unclear to us what the scope of this review will be. In order to save time, I'm going to ask you our four questions and then maybe you could address them all together.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Ms. Sims, you have 20 seconds, and that includes the minister's response, so—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Okay.

Very quickly, then, here's our main concern. Who is in charge of doing the review, who will be consulted, and when will we get the results?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

You can see my press release, from I think September of last year, answering those questions. This is not a new review.