Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 27th, 2013

[Clive Tolley]

Hockey Canada is a leader worldwide in terms of coach training and coach development. Part of the reason I ended up being the national team coach for Turkey was that the president of Turkey's ice hockey federation was at International Ice Hockey Federation meetings with the Canadians, and he wanted to know what he could do to move their system to be more like ours, ours being seen as the most successful in the world.

One of the reasons I was hired is that not only do I have a lot of coaching experience but I have coach training experience. I do an awful lot of clinics where I teach the coaches, coach the coaches. My job over there was multi-faceted in that I had about five assistant coaches for each one of the four national teams I coached, and my job was to mentor those coaches. At the same time I ran a level one, which we now call coach level in Canada, hockey coaches clinic over there in conjunction with the university.

In Canada, for instance, if you want to take a level one clinic, which we know as the coach level, it would take one Saturday. Over there, we extended it to a full week and we incorporated things about Turkish sport culture, and had lectures at the university, and we had an American goal-tending coach come. We gave them a lot more than a typical Canadian clinic.

What was interesting for me to learn was that the International Ice Hockey Federation has purchased all the Canadian coaching programs. The curriculum, the books, everything is exactly the same as what I would typically give on a Saturday to somebody here in Regina, Saskatchewan, except I was giving it in much more detail and over a longer period of time in Turkey.

Their goal was to move their Turkish ice hockey federation toward a Canadian model using International Ice Hockey Federation books and teaching methods, which are all Canadian, and that's why I was there.

I think we've had some success in terms of planting a seed and seeing it grow, because Turkey was 43rd in the world, I think, when I was there and now they've moved up to about 37th. So they see Canada as a leader. I don't think we need to do too much in terms of changing our coaching curriculum or how we're doing things. What is interesting is the comparison of Canadian ice hockey and Turkish football—or soccer, which they call football of course. They're mad about soccer. They are so passionate about it. All the children play in the street, in the alleyway, in the parking lot the way we see our kids out on the streets playing road hockey and doing all those things in Canada.

It was interesting. I was coaching these young under-18 boys and they would go in and take shots at the net, and when they missed the net, they retreated. I said, “What are you doing?” They said, “Well, we missed the net”. They think they're playing soccer and the goalie gets to bring it out.

The Turkish people who are very passionate about hockey are now adopting the Canadian model. They're using Canadian coaching systems and they're trying to catch up to us and get some of that passion, which we have for hockey and they have for football, into their hockey program. On a smaller scale, they're doing it. They have built a number of rinks and they've developed a lot more coaches.

How does it transfer to what we're doing here? It kind of reiterates how much passion we have for hockey and why we continue to be number one in the world at hockey.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I appreciate that very much.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

You have a minute and 20 seconds.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Okay, I guess I'm only going to get to one of the two questions I wanted to ask you.

And I did have some stuff for you, Mr. Toth, but I guess we're not going to get there either.

Mr. Tolley, the other day we had a couple of other panels in and I mentioned the idea.... I've heard of a few instances with hockey programs where professional coaching.... One of the points that was being made by a number of the panellists the other day was about younger levels. We need to have the more qualified coaches coaching these kids so that when they get to the older levels they've got that skill, that basic skill.

I'm not sure if there are any in Saskatchewan like this—maybe you're aware—where towns are actually hiring a professional coach, who is coaching at every level, and then having the volunteer coaches, the parents, coaching underneath the professional coach. So this coach is running the majority of the practices and is there for the games he can make but he has these volunteers working with him, the assistant coaches. That's one of the ways...recognizing the realities in Canada that there are thousands and thousands of coaches and there's no way they could all be professional coaches, but they try to use that model of having a professional coach working with the parent volunteers.

What are your thoughts on whether that's a viable and worthwhile thing to pursue?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

You have five seconds.

[Clive Tolley]

We recognize that's not going to work for every community. It is being done in some communities successfully. But what we've done is adopt this coach mentorship program as another road to the same goal. What we're doing is we're going out and modelling how you would teach a practice to these young people. There's a big difference between teaching a four-, five-, or six-year-old how to skate and teaching a 16-year-old how to do a toe drag. We're trying to give the skills to the local coaches to really teach the fundamentals well. That doesn't require a professional hockey skill level. That's just a sound understanding of the core skills of skating, puck-handling, and the ability to model and follow the modelling and the examples that we've set.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Madame Sellah.

Now we're into the five-minute rounds.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank the witnesses who have joined us through videoconference.

I am not a member of this committee; I am replacing my colleague Pierre Nantel. I am a member of the Standing Committee on Health. However, I am a former international athlete. I have always loved team sports. I used to play handball. My children were born here and, when I wanted to get them to play sports, because I thought it was important, unfortunately I discovered that, in amateur sports, parents were the ones who volunteered. My daughters started to play soccer. I pushed them a little in that direction. However, I found that there was a problem with the volunteers and I was very surprised. In fact, volunteers meant instability. But in my view, developing the skills of people so that they become professionals requires follow-up from the bottom up.

Could you tell me what measures have been taken by the federal government over the past few years to find amateur coaches?

I was also an athlete in my country of origin. The pool, the schools, produced international athletes. I was not able to address this issue because I did not have a chance to talk to the two witnesses, but I have to say that, although amateur coaches trained the athletes to begin with, those who reaped the benefits were professional coaches at an international level. But I found that this situation was unfair for some amateur coaches.

So could you tell me what is required of a professional coach, on the one hand, and of an amateur coach, on the other hand? My question is for both of you.

Thank you.

[Chuck Toth]

When I think of the word “amateur” versus “professional” I see dollar signs. An amateur coach is doing it for nothing and a professional coach is being paid.

There are no professional coaches at the high school level in any way, shape, or form. Somebody asked the question about the retention of coaches. It's one of the problems. When you're dealing with teachers for the most part, you've got the teacher staying after school to coach basketball, football, volleyball, or whatever it might be, making the same amount of money as a teacher who is leaving at 3:30. That becomes an issue. Clive had talked about retention of coaches. That's a difficult sell at the high school level. There is a certain amount of turnover. I'm understanding that's what you meant by the word “instability” that you used earlier.

Another thing that Clive said is that for someone to have basic coaching skills, at the high school level, they don't need to be a professional. It needs to be somebody who.... Again, I was a math teacher but that doesn't mean they couldn't have told me to totally turn around and teach a science class, which I did. Guess what? You learn and teach yourself enough so that you can teach the kids. It's the same thing at the sports level. If I'm going to teach badminton, I'm not a badminton player, but I can research the game and find enough information to give them the grassroots foundation skills that will lead them to getting good enough to maybe join a club team or whatever they're going to do. Whatever the next level is I can help them find that badminton club team, volleyball club team, or whatever.

I don't necessarily need to be a professional. And you're not going to get that as long as it's volunteers.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

You have 20 seconds.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'll ask Mr. Clive if he has any comments regarding the question.

[Clive Tolley]

I basically agree. We're trying to give our volunteer coaches the skills to teach the fundamentals so that a young person starting in our sport has lots of fun and develops skills. We believe we can teach coaches to do that. You may need highly trained and professional coaches at an elite level, but not at the very beginning, the grassroots of the game.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Madame Sellah.

Next we have Mr. Calandra, for five minutes.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Hi, guys. Thank you very much for appearing today.

I don't think I'll use all of my five minutes, but let me ask you a question, Mr. Toth. It was mentioned earlier that in hockey you have somewhere to aspire to. There are a bunch of different levels above you, and for the most part, of all of the sports that are handled in high school, that's about it in Canada.

Do you think we would benefit if we were to put in place scholarships for athletics at post-secondary institutions?

[Chuck Toth]

On a personal note, yes. When I graduated from high school here in Regina, I went to the States on a football scholarship. The States do it so much differently in terms of the coaches there. As the lady asked before, they are more at the professional level. They are getting paid, and it is pretty serious stuff.

Football is not bad, particularly in Saskatchewan. In Saskatchewan alone, there are four post-secondary places where you can play football after high school: two junior programs and two university programs. The other sports don't necessarily have that. If you are a volleyball player, there's really only two teams: the University of Saskatchewan and University of Regina. They have 12 or 14 students on those teams. But in comparison to the number of kids playing volleyball out there, that's not very many spaces available for students to develop at the next level where there is.... Again, I go back to this idea of professional coaching. The coaches at the university level are getting paid, and theoretically they should know more than, say, I do, at the high school level coaching volleyball.

I think it would help. It's a bit of a biased opinion. I know that some people will point to the downfalls of U.S. colleges, and the scandals and unfairness and such that goes with that, but that's a pretty small percentage. What you see on TV in the States is a very small percentage compared to the number of schools out there that do have scholarships. They are getting an education and they are actually developing their skills.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Still with you, Mr. Toth, and if you're not comfortable in answering, then that's fine. Using the Ontario perspective, right now there has been a work stoppage. That means that extracurriculars are not being done in the province of Ontario, at the primary or secondary levels.

That always seems to be a bit of a dilemma. A number of years ago there was some discussion about allowing professionals to come in to the school systems. Where there were no certified teachers available to do the job, professionals would be allowed in to the schools to fill positions with respect to music, but in this case coaching.

I know you said that teachers can fill these roles. I had great high school teachers who were coaches for me, but I've always thought, and you mentioned it, that it's a bit unfair that they are being paid the same as the teacher who goes home at 2:30 or 3:30.

My question is twofold. Should we be inviting more professionals into the schools to do athletics, where there is a void? Should our education system be looking at rewarding those who take on extra responsibilities and maybe go out to get training to become professional coaches as well as teachers?

[Chuck Toth]

I was going to answer your question with a question of my own. From where are we getting the professional coaches who are going to come into the schools?

If you look at the programs, and again I'm going back to the four football programs in Saskatchewan, if you look at the football coaching staff of those four programs, you would be stunned at the percentage of them who are either teachers or ex-teachers. Most people start at the high school level. I can talk about Regina Thunder Football Club because I'm part of the executive for that. When we're looking to fill a coaching position, we look at the high schools for who has the most experience, who is an outstanding coach at the high school level, and they come to the next level, that of junior or CIS. Of the Regina coaches, there are some high school people who are on the Regina Rams coaching staff, for example.

I'm not sure where the professionals are coming from. For the most part, they are already coming from the high school levels. Where are you going to bring others in?

Then we start with the Ontario thing here. I don't know where you're finding those professional coaches unless they are somehow being trained by the sport-governing bodies within the province, and then I suppose there would be some sort of certification that comes from them that they are professionals, which is the word we're using.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Calandra.

Mr. Toth and Mr. Tolley, thank you both for your time and your contribution to our study on amateur coaching in Canada.

We will suspend for 30 seconds or a minute until we go in camera to discuss some committee business.

Thank you both.

[Proceedings continue in camera]