Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 27th, 2013

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you for that. To me it's also a breeding ground for good coaches for the future, as well, certainly at that level. I say that because I represent small communities.

Recently there was a coaching issue that came up. I'm going to bring in Mr. Makela as well on this one. I'll ask him to answer this first.

One of the big deterrents to volunteer coaches are what I will call over-enthusiastic parents. I use that as somewhat of a euphemism, because we had an incident in my riding that was just absolutely shameful, carried on by two parents. Many coaches I talk to say that's one of the big deterrents to their getting involved, because they don't want to deal with angry parents if they have to say no to their children.

Would you care to comment on that? I'll go to the hockey world first, because that seems to gather all the news when it comes to angry parents.

[Pierre Lafontaine]

Well, we have no-contact swimming, so it's all about hockey.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I can well imagine. I'll get to you later. I don't know if that's true.

[Mikko Makela]

That is so true, and that is the most difficult part of this whole structure, in my opinion. We were talking about getting good coaching and qualified coaching at the grassroots, but that is almost impossible. I hear a lot of talk about how an educated coach is asked to coach an atom or peewee team, let's say, but that is their dilemma: they don't want to go there because of the parents. They can't do what they need to do in that environment to make the players better and, in my opinion, make the environment better and make it competitive, because of the parents.

That is the dilemma we're facing every day. It's at my level. It's at levels below mine. I know that even at some of the levels above mine it is a dilemma. This is something that's been there for years and years, and I believe it's going to be there for years and years, because how can we change that? We may have a qualified coach who doesn't want to coach for that reason.

How do we change that other than to educate the parents on this whole journey we're on? Educate them that maybe little Johnny is not an NHL-calibre player right now, but just let the coach do the job, and in two or three years it may be a possibility. This is something that we have a problem with, for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Finally, for the remaining seven minutes of the meeting, we will have Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to both of you for being here today.

Mr. Makela, you have at least a couple of girls at your school who come from my riding. I know that you have some girls playing there who are from Airdrie and Cochrane in Alberta. In particular, Mackenzie Ebel, who played with my son, actually, up until peewee, is down there at your school now. You can say “hi” to her from Quinn and his dad.

I have questions for both of you, but I want to start with you, because obviously you have some experience in coaching hockey here in Canada, but you also have your experiences from when you were growing up. You grew up in Finland and played hockey. When did you come to Canada? Did you come over as a pro or did you come over to Canada at the junior level?

[Mikko Makela]

Actually, I first came to Canada in 2002. I came to coach the Hurricanes in the WHL. I moved out of Finland in 1985.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Yes, you came over to North America, and I guess you were with the New York Islanders? Yes? Okay, so you came over to play with them.

Obviously you played hockey as a kid growing up in Finland. You played the equivalent of junior hockey, etc., in Finland, so I'm curious about your experiences, your time growing up with coaching there, and what you've seen since you've been here.

Also, you mentioned that you coached junior hockey. As well, now you're coaching in a minor hockey program. Tell us about your experiences in terms of how they train and qualify coaches in Finland and how coaching works there, compared to how it works in the hockey system in Canada.

[Mikko Makela]

That's a very, very good question and I hope I can be very short with my answer. It's kind of a long answer, but I'll try to make it short.

If you compare, in Europe there are so many players and in Canada we have so many players, and there are so many players falling through the cracks. In my opinion, in the minor hockey structure itself, I think we should look into that a little better. I don't know if this is a discussion that needs to be taken.

In my opinion, if you're signed to a AA midget team, for example, and you excel at the start of the season during the first two or three months, which can very well happen on many occasions, now you cannot move from this team. You have to be there. You're not allowed to call the AAA midgets because they already have their team. Now, you have a AAA midget player who is not performing at all. He's slacking off. His school work is not getting done. But you stay there because that's where you were signed.

It is completely opposite if you're looking at the European structure. They have all the age groups. They have all the different levels. They put them in at the start of the season in these levels, wherever they belong. During the season there's a lot of flexible movement between those levels. I think that is something we should definitely look into, because I don't think we should waste good talent in Canada, even though we have a lot of volume. I think that is big thing, more or less with the minor hockey end of the discussion. That is something that I see, and it's a huge issue.

Also, we were talking about the qualified coaching as an issue. We don't have a structure in the minor hockey system. Everybody is on their own. Everybody is doing their own thing, and it's win, win, win. That is a mentality that we have. I would bring Europe in again. Don't get me wrong: I'm more Canadian than a lot of Canadians themselves, but they're trying to maximize every player because they know they cannot waste any talent, in any which way.

I think we've been a bit too comfortable in our success, of any sport in Canada. We haven't talked about what we can actually do to change and make it better. We talk, talk, talk, but not about things we can actually do.

I think if we could get some type of a system in minor hockey—I'm talking hockey now—to get a person who is very qualified, he could make the structure from the peewee or atom, whatever they do, and educate the parents and players as to how they're going to do it, how it's going to work. They are going to make all the practice plans, and it should only be skills and more skills, I would say, until the end of bantam. Then when we hit the midget, we have a coaching staff that is very qualified to do that, and you have the tools. This is your time to make some noise.

That's where we are lacking in this whole structural situation. If we could get a little bit at that.... It's only getting the coaching staff who are qualified and putting the money into it so we can have that.

We can talk about this whole scenario, different things here, different things there, but what would we actually do? I think with the structure of the minor hockey systems, at least in what I've seen in Alberta—I don't know anywhere else—there's a lack of knowledge and a lack of making this more seamless, the movement from team to team if the player is qualified to move up.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you very much.

I think I've run out of time, but I appreciate that answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Makela and Mr. Lafontaine, thank you both.

I think we could have extended this meeting. There was a lot of great information that you both provided. However, we have another panel coming in at 4:30.

I want to thank both of you for your contribution to our study.

We're going to recess for three minutes to switch to the next panel.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

We'll get started.

Welcome to both of our witnesses: Mr. Chuck Toth, commissioner of athletics for Regina High Schools Athletic Association; and Mr. Clive Tolley, provincial regional coach mentor with the Saskatchewan Hockey Association. They're both joining us by way of video conference from Regina, Saskatchewan.

Welcome to both of you. Welcome to our heritage committee and our study on the status of amateur coaching in Canada.

As you've heard, you'll each have an opportunity to make some opening remarks. Then, with the time that's remaining, we'll have our members available to ask questions of you.

We'll begin with opening remarks from Mr. Toth.

The floor is yours.

[Chuck Toth, Commissioner of Athletics, Regina High Schools Athletic Association, Regina School Boards]

Thank you.

I'll start with my title. As commissioner of athletics for Regina high schools, I represent separate, public, private, and French school boards within the city. The affiliation I have is that Regina district is one of 14 districts in the province. It's primarily governed by the Saskatchewan High Schools Athletic Association, SHSAA, which is the provincial body.

The SHSAA is charged with the administration and organization of school sport by the participating school boards. Its guiding principles include the commitment to amateurism, student athlete welfare, gender equality, sportsmanship and fair play, cultural diversity, and the overall athletic experience. This is reflected in the organization's decision-making process and administration. Their motto is “education through athletics”.

In terms of structure, the Regina district consists of 18 high schools. We also have three associate schools from outside the city. The RHSAA administers league play and playoffs in approximately 11 sports. Many of them are at the junior and senior boys and girls levels.

Our teams are primarily coached by faculty members, that being teachers. However, we have a percentage of teams coached by what we call non-faculty coaches, primarily parents perhaps, or community people of some type. The ratio is probably about 75% teachers and 25% non-faculty.

That's sort of an overview of what our organization is about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you.

Next we'll go to Mr. Tolley.

[Clive Tolley, Provincial Regional Coach Mentor, Saskatchewan Hockey Association]

I'm one of seven provincial regional coach mentors at the Saskatchewan Hockey Association. These positions were created just in the last two years. We're volunteers who get honorarium expenses to be a liaison between the Saskatchewan Hockey Association, our provincial governing body for hockey, and all the hundreds of minor hockey associations in this province.

All of the coaches in our province are volunteers running minor hockey, and we wanted to try to support them in ways that they weren't previously being supported. If there's someone out there who coaches who's feeling that they're disconnected, they now have someone they can contact who can provide mentorship.

As the seven mentors working within this province, we report to the Saskatchewan Hockey Association manager of coach development. We work throughout the year on coach training, coach support, coach mentorship.

We're a liaison and actively try to provide the coaches in this province with more skills so that the young players who are joining hockey in Saskatchewan are getting a fun and skill-development experience.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you for your opening remarks.

We'll now go to our question and answer period.

We will begin with Mr. Boughen.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thanks, Chair.

Hi, Clive, and hi, Chuck. Welcome to the committee, gentlemen. We appreciate your taking time to share your thoughts with us on the matter of coaching and what needs to happen in coaching various sports.

Let's start with you, Clive. Talk to us about the transfer of skills.

A couple of weeks ago, I saw a young guy, about 10 years old, playing basketball. This kid could move like you wouldn't believe in terms of his footwork and speed. It turns out that this young monkey is a soccer player, so his footwork from soccer stood him in very great stead on the basketball floor.

Can you give us some kind of insight into how this transfer of skill works so that we get away from a youngster playing baseball 12 months of the year instead of playing baseball, soccer, a little basketball, and hockey in the winter? How do we try to ensure that this happens?

Clive, do you want to start that off?

[Clive Tolley]

Thanks, Ray, it's good to hear from you.

The national coaching certification program is really pushing for long-term athlete and player development across all sports. We at hockey are a big part of supporting that initiative. We think the kids should be doing everything as much as they can in the season. For example, for an athlete who before would have been asked to choose between a basketball team and a hockey team, maybe the coaches get along to the point where they allow the player to play both sports concurrently. We're very supportive of initiatives that would see the kids develop as athletes first and sport-specific athletes second.

There are a number of spring hockey programs that are not part of the normal winter hockey program. Those are going to continue to exist because parents feel very strongly that they want to give their children that extra ice time, those extra trips, and the experience that comes with that.

On a personal basis, at the end of the hockey season I'd like to see us go out and play baseball, soccer, lacrosse, or any of the other sports. But we in hockey are committed to long-term athlete development, not just the development of hockey skills.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thanks, Clive.

Chuck, what do you say?

[Chuck Toth]

High school athletics are somewhat different. I think there are going to be some major differences here between educationally based sports, such as in high schools, and community programs, whether they be hockey, like Clive is involved in, or any of the other club teams as we'll call them, volleyball, basketball, community baseball, or such sports.

High school sports have definite boundaries. We have fall sports, winter sports, and spring sports, and none of them will overlap. So the big push for high school is in fact exactly what you're talking about, and that is multi-sport athletes because there are transferable skills from one to the other. We see at the end of our fall sports that basketball does not start until provincial football is over and vice-versa, and it continues on through the rest of the year. That's already a big component of high school athletics.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

If we're talking about the elite athlete and owning the podium and going to the Olympics, when we look at the spectrum of sport, will other sports eventually catch up to hockey?

When youngsters are 12 or 13 years old and identified as hockey players, before you know it they're off living and playing hockey in Kamloops when their hometown is Yorkton, Saskatchewan. They're going to be part of that whole hockey fraternity that is really raised by surrogate parents, if you will, because they are billeted out. But you can't debate the skill level they're undergoing in terms of training at the junior level with the coaches who are there across the west, and the east for that matter.

Will the other sports ever catch up, following that kind of strategy, or is there a different strategy we should be using? How do we train the elite athlete?

[Clive Tolley]

I think the reason we're so superior—and I don't think this is a surprise to you or anybody on the committee—is partly cultural. Canadian athletes view hockey as the ultimate goal and many of them pursue it.

I was out on the ice yesterday with a grandfather and his four-year-old grandson. They were having races and shooting against each other on the ice surface. You don't often see a grandfather and a grandson playing basketball, soccer, or baseball. I think a big part of what's going to help Canada advance in other sports will be the influx of new immigrants from around the world who will bring more of a cultural passion for other sports.

I think we can offer the children a full gamut of all the different options, so that if their passion is basketball, baseball, or soccer, there are some opportunities to travel and play and simulate some of the things that are currently being done in hockey.

Getting back to this year-round training for hockey, as you said, soccer has skills that transfer tremendously to hockey. I think what we want to do is provide opportunities for mass participation, so that everybody gets an opportunity to play all these different sports. Then we can identify those people that have the special skills and get them to elite camps and get them when they are 12 to 15 years of age when they really want to excel and maybe choose a sport. There are avenues for them in other sports, not just in hockey.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Chuck, what do you say? Is there a technique we should be using at the high school level to train kids? We know that some kids mature more quickly than others and some are more athletic than others. Do we identify those kids who are athletically inclined and move them into another arena? What do you think?

[Chuck Toth]

I want to take a little bit out of what Clive was talking about. One difference I notice between hockey and what we have as sports in high school is that at the high school level there's not an emphasis put on the elite athlete. It's on the experience. It's on the multi-sport athlete, and on developing all skills.

I've attended a number of athletic director conferences in the United States. The big thing for them—and this was actually one of the topics of the sessions I went to at which they talked about what they were looking for. Are they looking for an elite athlete or are they looking for somebody who can do a lot of different things? The general consensus was that people who are looking for kids and giving them U.S. scholarships are looking for well-rounded athletes. So in the States they're looking to get scholarships.

In Canada I think it's different, because with hockey there's a goal, a target. You keep working your way up the ladder and hopefully.... Everybody has the idea that they're going to make the big show in the NHL. In Canada it's difficult to do that at the basketball level. Where do you go? Once you're finished high school, there are a limited number of opportunities to play, whereas in hockey there are all of these leagues and you can continue your way up. There is no professional basketball. In fact, many of the kids, as Clive said, who go to hockey camps in the same way go to basketball camps. They'll play club volleyball 12 months a year with the idea of getting a scholarship in the States. That's what they're aiming at.

I think with hockey it's the same idea. They want to make that next level. For other sports, particularly in high school, there isn't that next level other than in university, and everybody wants the scholarship at the end of the rainbow.