Canadian Heritage Committee on April 24th, 2013

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

As I mentioned before, I was in Poland during the birth of Solidarity and then the strikes. I was actually planning on leaving Poland in 1981, but martial law was imposed and all travel was banned. Therefore what we consider here a normal thing, that everybody has a passport, that passport had to go back to the police station because they were the ones holding passports. Nobody was able to travel.

Eventually, after martial law was lifted in 1985, I left with no intention of not going back. I left for the United States of America and eventually I decided to apply to come to Canada and that's how I ended up here.

What inspired me to run for an office? All my life, since I was small, there was a tradition in my home of community voluntary work. That wasn't a tradition that was somehow invented by communists. This was something that was a tradition in Poland before the war. Of course my parents were born and educated before the war. Therefore that tradition was kept and I was always involved in organizations.

Therefore when I came here to this country, I was working to provide for my family, but I always dedicated almost as much time as for my job to do volunteer and community work. I did most of my work in the Canadian Polish community. For five years I was the national president of the Canadian Polish Congress. I had interactions with elected representatives working on different issues, and that eventually led to my decision to serve people on a higher level, because I truly do consider being a member of Parliament a service to the people who elected me.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Young.

Mr. Cash.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and thank you Mr. Lizon for being here. You might be the first Conservative member I've met who's been on a picket line. I'm very happy to know that.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

More than once.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

I'm curious, is there a John Paul II Day? Have other states acknowledged Pope John Paul in the way in which you are proposing in this bill?

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Not that I'm aware of. The only thing I know is that there were attempts at the provincial legislature in Ontario and in previous Parliaments.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

I'm curious about your opinion around the fact that.... I believe, the church has a feast day for John Paul right now. It's October 22nd, or something.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I'm not sure whether there's an official—

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

In our...[Inaudible--Editor]...in Toronto, I believe it is. Sorry, I thought we were in Toronto. That's my problem.

Maybe you could just help us understand why it is that Canada should recognize a religious figure in this way, given the church does recognize him and has set out a specific day to celebrate the life and the work—much of it very excellent work—of John Paul II.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

As you mentioned, I think we should make a distinction between a church holiday that is for the faithful to observe, and a holiday, a day that everybody can acknowledge and observe. As I mentioned, Pope John Paul II was of course a leader of the Catholic Church, but his approach to other faiths, his approach to the unfaithful or people who are atheists, or everybody, was the same.

He was open. He extended his hand to everybody. He treated people equally. Therefore I think it would be appropriate if all Canadians had the opportunity to celebrate his achievements.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to inform the chair I'd like to move the motion that I presented a couple of weeks ago. It reads:

That the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage undertake a comprehensive study of the recent changes at Library and Archives Canada including the introduction of a code of conduct and invite relevant witnesses including Daniel Caron as well as representatives from library, archivist and archaeological associations.

I can move that motion right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Cash.

Mr. Cash still has the floor. You don't want to have a vote or anything on your motion, do you?

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Yes, I do. I'm moving the motion and I want to have a vote on the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

All right. Mr. Cash had given the notice for his motion. He's moved his motion, and that starts debate on his motion.

We can debate the motion.

Mr. Simms.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Sorry, I have the floor.

This motion is in fact in response to two questions that I and my colleague Pierre Nantel asked on March 18, in which Minister James Moore replied, “If there are controversies about the code of conduct, and I gather there are..., I invite my colleague and the heritage critic for the NDP to invite Daniel Caron to come before committee to explain the code of conduct”.

Now, this is an issue of grave import in terms of how we preserve, how we share, how we collect the important documentation of Canadian history. This is something we hear time and time again, that the Conservatives think it is a grand priority. Yet we've seen that cuts to Library and Archives Canada have resulted in the end of the interlibrary loan program; the relieving of duties of archivists; the internal re-identification of archivists from specialists to generalists, which raises all sorts of concerns; the fact that the government isn't doing its due diligence when it comes to acquisitions; and the fact that we have had archivists and historians who have really raised the alarm bells around this stuff. Then to come out with a code of conduct that essentially muzzles debate....

It did seem as though the minister had said this was something that concerned him. I think it concerns many of us; that's why I move this motion. That's why I think it's important we get on with a study, and we bring in the stakeholders and the people who are really focused on this issue.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

To add to what he was saying, there is no doubt about it, that in no uncertain terms, the direction we got from the minister in the House was that this would be something we should look into. He even cited Mr. Caron, specifically, as a person of interest to discuss this with.

Not only that, but the fundamental shift in Library and Archives has taken everyone off guard, to the point where there is a fundamentally different way of thinking that's going to be applied. It seems the government is trying to move into some kind of digital world without thinking about the expertise of the individual librarian or archivist.

As a case in point, the local program, the NADP, was such a wonderful program for people in local communities to learn how to archive their material. The answer we got was, “We cut it because all you need to do is digitize it”. That negates the fact that to archive something is an art in and of itself and it takes talent and it takes education for people to do this. It's not just taking something and downloading it to a disk. How do you do that? How do you tell the story? How do you allow the local communities to display their history, both in static displays in a museum as well as online?

I don't understand how there’s the disconnect between what a librarian or an archivist does and the way the government makes decisions, including Mr. Caron. Because, quite frankly, I'm astounded at how Mr. Caron can just let this go as far as it has.

As per the direction of the minister, I think it's quite obvious. I think we come in and have a hearing with relevant guests, not just Mr. Caron but also relevant witnesses to speak to this and to show us and illustrate what it is to be a librarian or an archivist. Because I think that for a lot of people on this committee—myself included, and I'm not trying to be nasty about it—there are a lot of things they do that we just don't quite understand. I think the government could benefit from this as well, as a matter of fact. Maybe the minister would, otherwise he probably wouldn't have suggested we bring the individual in along with other relevant guests.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Nantel is next.

We have a witness here, where we have a bill before us, and we do have a subcommittee scheduled for Monday. Is there some reason why people want to debate this now?

You've moved the motion. The committee has carriage now of the motion. Do we want to return, then, to...?

Mr. Nantel, you're next on the list.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I just wanted to ask for a vote, Mr. Chair. I feel that this motion is fully in the spirit of what the Minister of Canadian Heritage has said in the House. So let us call for the vote. Fortunately, no witness can be more understanding of this situation than a member of Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Calandra, go ahead.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I move to go in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

There is a motion to move in camera. Is it the will of the committee to move in camera?

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

No, right now we have a vote on a motion to move in camera.

Is it the will of the committee to move in camera?

(Motion agreed to)

Okay, we're moving in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Okay, we're back in public.

We have no one left on the speaker's list.

Mr. Calandra.