Evidence of meeting #14 for Canadian Heritage in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Canadian Musician, Faber Drive, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
Our record label generally gets grants and moneys to help support with touring, making albums. We generally weren't too focused on getting the money ourselves, because generally the record label would help support with that type of stuff.
When you're first starting out, record labels usually help with that, but after a few years they tend to cut out helping with that stuff. They still do help out, but they want you to become self-sustaining. It's tough, but that's what I have.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
You talked about the whole aspect of income averaging and trying to find a different way to, obviously, pay taxes, but pay taxes on a more consistent level of revenue versus making a lot of money in one year and then, as you say, not making necessarily as much the next year. Look, I'm not a tax guy and you're not a tax guy, but how wide of a net would we make this?
I remember sitting on the finance committee and we would get presentations around budget time about the exact same thing. Those who are self-employed in general have some good years, and they may have some bad years, and income averaging would allow them to pay a little bit less tax when they're having a really good year and a little bit more tax when they're having a harder year.
I wonder how far you were thinking of casting the net when you made your recommendation.
Canadian Musician, Faber Drive, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
I would think probably around three or four years, because oftentimes it's year to year. Last year we got stung with a big tax bill because the year before we had a really good year. The problem is we have to pay that off within the next year. It's hard. That's part of the reason that I had to go back to doing concrete. I've been in concrete for a few months now because we're just not able to pay the taxes back. It's a big bill. That's basically why.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
The other thing, and maybe this is more for Brad, is the aspect that you guys brought forward in terms of how you make sure that people know—I'll step back here.
It seems that young people for the most part are not quite sure how the industry works in the sense of being able to get music any more. When I was a kid, we bought records and CDs. That was the only way we could access music, so we automatically, for the most part, paid for the album. Nowadays it's a lot easier to do that. From your responsibility or your company's representation, what is the aspect of education?
I'm very intrigued with this whole concept of introducing a national educational component that allows schools and school boards to pick up on the potential of offering this as a way of educating people to understand that folks are trying to make a living and that by stealing their work, it doesn't help them.
Director, Recording Artists’ Collecting Society, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
When I think about this education, it's certainly something we would agree with. I think for the younger community and even some adults, people don't understand how these people make a living. There are perceptions of red carpets and tuxedos and gowns and fancy parties, big houses and Lamborghinis, but in fact, we hear of situations like what Dave is talking about that are much different.
Part of the education that Music Canada has talked about in their report and what Victoria has mentioned here is educating people about how performers make a living and that their revenue comes from various different streams, whether it's from album sales, both digitally or physically, or merchandising and touring. All these revenue streams—from having their music played on radio, from private copying, the streams just go on and on—are collectively making up their income. It's educating everybody about what happens and creating resources for people to go to in order to understand what these people do for a living.
It's very different from...for example, when I go to work, I have one employer and one paycheque. I don't have multitudes of revenue streams. That's sometimes difficult to understand because of what we see on TV, in the movies, and so on. It creates a very different perception.
Education nationally across the country as part of the school system we see as being something that would start sooner rather than later and would be consistent.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gord Brown
Thank you very much.
We have a few minutes left, but we're going to move to Monsieur Lapointe.
Mr. Lapointe, you have four minutes.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Good, thank you.
Mr. Faber, if I may....
I thank you for being with us today.
I would like to take this opportunity to use your experience as an example, more specifically to discuss the consequences of the current state of affairs in the industry for songwriters and composers.
As a band, you are quite successful in pop rock, which is not an alternative genre of music listened to by few people. You have recorded three albums so far.
Could you tell us a bit more about your situation? You are a songwriter in a band which has been successful in Canada. How do your sources of revenue compare with what you receive as a songwriter? Despite the fact that your band is quite successful, with touring and all the rest, in your case, what do those resources look like?
Canadian Musician, Faber Drive, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
For me, I would say the three main revenue sources are doing concerts, touring, but more than that would be songwriting, so getting royalties from songwriting, as well as ACTRA RACS. Those are probably the three main sources for income for me personally.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Could you give me an idea of your albums' reach in terms of CD sales and downloads?
Canadian Musician, Faber Drive, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
Well, our biggest-selling song was G-Get Up and Dance!, which sold more than 120,000 copies in Canada. Then we had a couple of other songs that went gold.
In terms of physical copies of CDs, I don't know whether we sold much more than 20,000 physical copies of each album.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
So, if I have correctly understood you, for a pop rock group like yours, 120,000 downloads are a hit.
Is that correct?
Canadian Musician, Faber Drive, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
Yes, I would say that for a massive hit such as Call Me Maybe by Carly Rae Jepsen there will be something like 200,000 to 300,000 singles sold. G-Get Up and Dance! went to number two on Top 40 radio in Canada, and that song sold about 120,000 to 130,000 copies.
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
As things stand in the industry, what does that mean for your group in terms of potential revenues?
I am trying to understand why members of a band that is successful still have to find a day job after three albums. I would simply like people to correctly understand the situation.
Canadian Musician, Faber Drive, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
I'm sorry; are you saying...?
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
As a sound engineer, I have worked in the industry for a long time. I would like to help people understand that in 1982, a success like yours would provide a decent income for at least five or ten years, which is no longer the case.
Since you have direct experience of this situation, I would like you to tell us about your circumstances and the reason why you cannot make a decent living despite such success.
Canadian Musician, Faber Drive, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
To be totally honest, I don't know the exact answer to that, except that maybe a lot of it is smoke and mirrors. People see you on MuchMusic and think you're rich. They think you're a millionaire. They think you have a mansion. We've had three number one singles on MuchMusic, and I'm still living in a basement suite of my in-laws' house. They've been very supportive and very kind. It's the reality of music nowadays. The fact that you're on TV or that you have a number one song on the radio doesn't mean that you're rich, doesn't mean that you're a millionaire, doesn't mean that you drive a Ferrari.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I believe Mr. Lauzon also wanted to make a comment.
Conservative
General Manager, Society for Reproduction Rights of Authors, Composers and Publishers in Canada
Twenty years ago when there were albums, there were 13 to 15 songs on an album. Whether it was 20,000, 50,000 or 100,000 albums that were sold, people were making a living out of 15 times the number of albums. It was 8.3 cents for a song on an album. That was almost a dollar as an author-composer. If you are selling 20,000 albums and it brings you a dollar approximately per album.... Now you're selling one song through download. Adjusting it so that the market is the same, you have to sell—
General Manager, Society for Reproduction Rights of Authors, Composers and Publishers in Canada
—or 15 times as many just to be equal to where you would have been in the past. Then obviously you make revenues out of broadcast, performing, and all of those things. That's why, as an education question.... This is mainly what we do: we educate people on this.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gord Brown
That's going to have to be the last word; I'm sorry. We have another panel. But I want to thank our panellists for their time today. We appreciate your input into our study.
Thank you very much. We will suspend.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gord Brown
We're going to call this meeting back to order.
First of all, we are having a little bit of difficulty with the translation, but it is all there. The English and the French are being swapped at certain times. If you find that the audio is in the language you don't want it to be in, just try to flip over. We're trying to fix this right now. We are being broadcast in both French and English, but it may not be on the correct channel.
We now are going to move to our second panel.
We have with us today, from the Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo, Solange Drouin, the vice-president of public affairs and executive director.
From the Canadian Independent Music Association, we have Stuart Johnston, the president, and Shauna de Cartier, the chair.
By video conference from Vancouver, British Columbia, from Music BC Industry Association, we have Robert D'Eith.
We are going to start with Ms. Drouin. You have eight minutes.
Solange Drouin Vice-President of Public Affairs and Executive Director, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo (ADISQ)
Hello.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gord Brown
Could we have quiet in the room. We are starting the first presentation.
We haven't started your time yet. We're starting right now.