Canadian Heritage Committee on March 30th, 2015

[The Chair (Mr. Gordon Brown (Leeds—Grenville, CPC)), Conservative, Gord Brown]

Good afternoon everyone.

We're going to call meeting number 38 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to order.

Today we are going to deal with Bill C-597. We have Mr. Harris, who is the sponsor of that bill.

We are now in the middle of a half-hour debate on a time allocation motion, with the bells to commence at 3:50. We will get about 20 minutes in before the bells start. The vote is at 4:20. Hopefully, we can have everyone back here as soon as possible and at least get started up again by about 4:50, which will leave us about 40 minutes, so we're going to get one hour to deal with this.

I've already cancelled the second hour where we would have dealt with Bill S-219.

Mr. Harris, you have 10 minutes.

Ms. Sitsabaiesan, you have a point of order?

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

What is going to happen to the first hour of Bill S-219? Is it just gone or is it going to be rescheduled?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

We're only going to get one hour today. We're only going to be having one hour of the two hours because of the vote.

We will discuss that a little later on.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Mr. Harris, you have the floor again.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First off, thank you to all the members for your vote on November 5 to get this bill passed at second reading.

It was a great show of teamwork among all the parties to bring this bill forward, to have an agreement where each of the parties sent up a speaker, and then we moved on, forgoing the second hour of debate and immediately proceeded to the vote. That was a fantastic bit of teamwork that was brought forward and that's why we're here now.

I was very pleased that the bill passed second reading almost unanimously. Moving forward, hopefully we can continue that great work. There's not much time left in the calendar to get this back to House and off to the Senate to become law before Parliament rises and we end up in an election campaign.

My inspiration for bringing Bill C-597 forward was the year I spent working in Alberta. I'm originally from Ontario, Scarborough born and bred, lived there my entire life, and never experienced Remembrance Day as a holiday. Then during my year working in Alberta, of course it is a statutory holiday there, I got to see some differences about how it's recognized and the importance that people place on it. I thought that might be something we could bring forward at the federal level.

Looking at the Holidays Act itself, I was perplexed to find that we have three holidays. Two of them, Canada Day and Victoria Day, are both listed as legal holidays. Remembrance Day doesn't have the word “legal” and it's simply a holiday. This bill would seek to elevate it to the same status as the other holidays at the federal level.

The great thing with this is that federal jurisdictions, federal businesses, and the government are already shut down that day. Banks are also closed. There isn't a cost associated with implementing this in the same way that you would traditionally have if you were to bring in a completely new statutory holiday

Of course, the actual recognition of holidays happens at the provincial level. Currently, we already have six provinces and three territories that recognize it as a statutory holiday. Then there is Nova Scotia, which has its own Remembrance Day Act, and Manitoba, which has retail and businesses closed until 1:00 pm.

There are many different things that the provinces can look to do.

In Ontario, for instance, it's generally a regular business day, but the public sector is shut down on Remembrance Day. That's something that was negotiated between the government and their employees. Certainly, if Ontario chose to go down that path, it would be something that would be worth extending to all Ontarians, but, of course, that decision lies with the province.

One of the most interesting things I found, when this debate was taking place, was the national conversation that ensued. From coast to coast, people were talking about our acts of remembrance and what it means and what the best options are. Should this be a statutory holiday everywhere, so that everyone has the opportunity to go and pay their respects if they choose, or should we should carry on as a normal day?

There was lots of back and forth on that, especially in the provinces where it is not a holiday already. There's the debate about kids being in school and the importance of them being able to learn about our rich history through being in school, and observing ceremonies and participating in events. Of course, in the provinces where it is a statutory holiday, they do ceremonies and events on the last school day before Remembrance Day. You're able to commemorate and get kids to learn in school while still having November 11 off. The example I like to use is from Newfoundland and Labrador, where kids have a week of in-class instruction and learn about Remembrance Day, and then have the day off to go to ceremonies with their friends and families if they choose.

There are lots of different ways that we can commemorate, and having that national discussion was a big part of that. One of my local radio stations, 102.1 the Edge, is not a news station but purely a music station. I was surprised to hear even them, when I tuned in on Remembrance Day, talking about the bill and whether it was a good idea to make it a statutory holiday.

Any time we as parliamentarians can spark debate and conversations of this nature, I think we advance ourselves as a society and as a democracy. It helps to remind us of exactly what those brave men and women sacrificed so that we would have the country we have, one where we can have these open, free, and fair discussions without any fear of reprisal. I think's that's very important and great.

The other thing we should certainly touch on is the second clause of the bill. There's agreement between the parties to remove that from the bill, but that will, of course, require an amendment here to actually remove it from the bill. I certainly hope colleagues on all sides will be in agreement, because that was really the thing that got us the agreement in the House to move the bill forward.

It's a simple question of protocol with respect to lowering the flag. I heard the arguments and was in agreement that we should actually maintain the flexibility to lower the flag to half-mast whenever we choose, whenever protocol demands it, rather than it being fixed that it has to be at half-mast on November 11 and not allowing for any variations for ceremonies or as protocol would evolve over time. We definitely want to avoid situations where a natural evolutionary process of protocol would require parliamentarians to come back and change the law, because that's a heck of a lot of work for something very small. I heard the arguments about this and was in agreement to get rid of that part of the bill. That will have to be brought forward as an amendment here.

We are short on time, so I want to get to the questions. I don't think you're going to have me back for another meeting, so the faster we get to questions, I think the more we'll get answered.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

The plan is to come back after the votes.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, but I won't have a problem talking as much as I want.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

We'll now move to the questions.

Mr. Dykstra, you have the floor.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Dan, for your presentation.

You mentioned some of the discussion that has gone on about the bill. Obviously any time people are talking, especially about private members' bills, around the country, it means there's some engagement and interest in what's transpiring here in Ottawa and on the Hill. Those discussions aren't necessarily supportive and they're not necessarily against. They fall under the realm of trying to address what's being presented, in your case this piece of legislation. One of the things I've learned since the passing of the bill at second reading is that there is a tremendous divide, if you will. A lot of folks are supportive, but a tremendous number of folks are not supportive.

One thing that folks asked me to ask you about at committee if we had the opportunity, was your consultation process. How did that begin? How did it evolve? Who did you consult with in terms of your position on the bill?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The consultative process was undertaken for several months before the bill came before the House. It included letter-writing campaigns to every single legion across the country, because unfortunately—and this was always perplexing—we could never get Dominion Command to return our calls. That was very unfortunate, because you want to be engaging in these conversations.

Through the last couple of years, every time I'd encounter a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, I'd ask them for their opinions on this bill and whether they thought that making Remembrance Day a statutory holiday made sense. I found that the vast majority of them were in agreement.

There are a lot of folks who think it will lose meaning if we make it into a statutory holiday. I know that in Ontario part of the concern was that if kids aren't in school they're not going to learn about it and we're actually going to take a step back. But for this, like anything else we honour or celebrate, it's incumbent upon us to give it meaning. I think that's where the importance is here. As long as we continue to provide great importance to and a focus on Remembrance Day, it will gain in importance and meaning.

The consultative process, though, was not perhaps as fulsome as I would have liked. Certainly, I don't think we're ever able to spend enough time consulting on the different things we want to do or meeting with as many different groups and individuals as possible. I had conversations with the Retail Council of Canada, as well as the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, and heard from those groups about what they thought. As well, in going to some of their member businesses to see what they thought, although there are certainly a number of businesses that don't want to see another statutory day off, I was pleasantly surprised by the number that did.

Depending on where you are in retail, for instance, this bill might not have much of an impact. One CEO I spoke to told me that people have only so much money to spend, and if they can't spend it today, they'll spend it tomorrow. For his business, he wasn't going to see a negative to bringing this bill forward. With another CEO, it was a question of his grandfather having served in the First World War, and he would have appreciated having the day to pay his respects and to participate in ceremonies and services.

There's a lot of opinion out there all across the way, but I think everybody is on the right track with respect to wanting to find the best way to commemorate the eleventh.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I notice that, in your being on the presenting side of things, how easy it is to use up seven minutes in an answer.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That wasn't seven minutes. It was only three or four.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Have you talked to any school boards, or to representatives from the Ontario or Quebec education systems, since they would be the provinces I imagine you had in mind when you drafted the bill? Also, have you also consulted with other school boards in provinces that already have the holiday in place? I know that over the past number of weeks I've heard both positions on the issue from some of the folks I've heard from.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I didn't speak directly with the school boards. It's very much like having formal discussions with the provinces before we even get past second reading. I saw a little bit as putting the cart before the horse.

I did speak about this to a number of teachers in and around the GTA, many of whom are the teachers who actually end up being the representative at the school who organizes their ceremonies. Typically, in most schools, one teacher is given the task of putting together the curriculum for the day for the ceremonies that are going to be done in schools.

This leaves the situation open, whereby you're going to have a vastly different take on it in every single school. Some schools will do the absolute bare minimum that's required in the curriculum, and other schools will have really great and fantastic services and have veterans in the school to share their stories, impart their wisdom, and remind us all of why war is such a terrible thing and how we should have a world where it isn't needed anymore.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

We've had a number of legions come forward. I know many members of committee and also of our caucus have had their legions come forward to state their opposition to the bill. I wondered whether, before or after second reading, you had endeavoured to consult with the legions, and which ones were supportive. How did those that weren't supportive address the issue?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

You have 15 seconds.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As I said at the beginning, we sent out letters to every single legion across the country. I'm glad you are hearing back from some of them. I wish some of them had contacted me with their concerns so that I could actually address them. The legions in my area have been very supportive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Ms. Sitsabaiesan and Ms. Latendresse, who are going to split seven minutes.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Chair, before we start the seven minutes, is it possible to ask for unanimous consent so that we could finish the entire seven minutes? I know that the bells are supposed to be in four minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Is there consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Yes.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Harris, my fellow Scarborough MP.

I have just one question, and then I will pass the floor to Madame Latendresse.

In a similar vein to Mr. Dykstra's questions, I've heard from residents in Scarborough who love the idea of this, and there are also some people who are not so supportive. When children are in school, leading up to Remembrance Day they actually learn about it and then they take the time at 11 o'clock to commemorate the history and to participate in a ceremony. Their concern is that if children are taken out of school for the day, some parents or residents, who may or may not be parents right now, are concerned that maybe they won't be engaged.

I'm sure you've heard that, too.

What do we tell people in the community? What is your response to those comments?