Canadian Heritage Committee on March 30th, 2015

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Any holiday that we celebrate or recognize or commemorate is not going to have a 100% participation rate. Not everybody participates in Canada Day even. For a lot of us, that's our biggest holiday. It's not the case in all provinces.

I said a lot of us, not everyone, Madam Latendresse.

If kids are not in school and the parents are also off, then in that instance I would say it perhaps falls a little bit onto the parents to impart that importance. We shouldn't say that kids aren't going to learn anything in school. If it's not going to be in school on the 11th itself, then it should be the day beforehand. In the provinces that do have it as a holiday, that's exactly what they do. It shouldn't be about just the one day.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Absolutely. Thank you for that. It's my understanding as well that in communities where the commemorations happen, the onus is on parents to educate their children and to make sure they're participating in these community ceremonies. Schools are doing many events leading up to the event also.

Thank you.

I'll pass the rest of my time to Madam Latendresse.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

One thing that is also really important about the education the kids get in school is that, particularly for new Canadians who come from parts of the world where this isn't commemorated, this is how those families learn about its importance to Canada and about the sacrifice that our men and women have made. The kids learn about it in school, and then they go home and tell their parents. That's often how you'll get uptake with new Canadians who then say, “Well, this is the reason we have this great country, and I wanted to come here. I'll go pay my respects.”

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few questions for you, Mr. Harris.

There is a military base near my riding. Many veterans and military members live in my constituency. November 11 has always been a particularly interesting day. A number of events are held, both in the legion and in several parts of my riding. It's an excellent idea to give legal status to that holiday, which is actually more important than July 1 itself in my riding. That is quite impressive.

How could giving Remembrance Day legal holiday status affect the way Canadians celebrate that day? What will the change make possible that is not currently possible?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Remembrance Day is a national event that is important for everyone. In that sense, our system is no different from the American one. The U.S. government started by adopting legislation it enforced on a federal level, and each state then adopted a similar piece of legislation. In other words, the 51 or 52 states have all adopted their own legislation. They commemorate the day, and that is very important. It would be a good idea for us to do the same as a nation, but it's up to each province to decide on the best way to commemorate those events.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You mentioned this in your opening remarks, but could you explain a little more clearly why you now agree with removing the second subclause of clause 1 of your bill?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It's a matter of protocol. Most people won't think of those details, and that is why the provision was originally included in the bill. I am not the only member to make that suggestion. Chris Charlton proposed a very similar provision, and Inky Mark, a former Conservative member, did the same. The idea was to lower the flag to half-mast. Sorry, I can't remember how to say it in French.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

It's “en berne”.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Pardon?

“En berne”. Thank you. Lowering the flag to half-mast makes sense to Canadians, but the government may want that to happen at 11 a.m., during the ceremony.

To put it down at half-mast at a particular time of day when it's going to be relevant, and for instance the country is watching, makes more sense than at 12:01 and it having to be put down at half-mast. It also makes sense if protocol were to evolve with time, and we were to change what's appropriate with respect to lowering the flag. It's much better to not have to go back in and have a new law in order to make that change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much. That takes us over the seven minutes.

Bells are now going. I would like to have members return as quickly as they can. As soon as we have a quorum I'll call the meeting back to order.

On that basis, we'll now suspend.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Harris and I think everyone around this table agrees there's no amount of commemoration and no amount of ceremony that can properly acknowledge the efforts of our veterans; those who didn't return and those who returned to tell their story. There's no amount of compensation that can be paid to them that adequately recognizes the financial needs of those who returned ailing from injuries that are sometimes permanent and some less so. I applaud your efforts through this legislation to heighten the profile of Remembrance Day. I think more days than November 11 should be days in which we recognize the efforts of our veterans.

Having said that, I recall that I am one person at least. I know you consulted many, but I am one you talked to prior to second reading. As I understand the legislation, it would recognize Remembrance Day, November 11, as a legal holiday and that did not import with it that it would be a statutory holiday. In other words it's not automatic that schools and businesses are closed across Canada. That jurisdiction to close schools and business lies with the provinces in all matters except those that are federal in nature like banks and those other types of institutions.

Is that correct?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Absolutely.

You're quite right. It could never be said that we've done too much to honour the sacrifices that the brave men and women over generations have made for our country.

One of the things they were protecting was government and the jurisdictions that we have between the federal government and the provinces. This would apply to areas of federal jurisdiction who, for the majority, already have it off.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Exactly.

I want to pursue a line of questioning that Mr. Dykstra began.

Some of the different organizations have expressed their concern—I've talked to my own legion in Guelph, the Colonel John McCrae Branch—and there are some that favour a statutory holiday that allows people out of work and out of school. However, a predominant number of people who spoke to me said they have concerns about being out of school and out of work because sometimes people don't associate that day off with the responsibility to properly commemorate our veterans.

Have you heard from people that there is a concern about the statutory holiday nature, which of course this does not create as you've already explained?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

There is certainly that concern and I think that concern is borne out any time any government looks to make a change like this.

There was quite the debate in Ontario when the provincial government decided to implement Family Day. How many families would take the day to spend with each other as a family?

That certainly is going to be a concern and that responsibility has to go back to the individuals. This day will only continue to have meaning for us and for our country if we continue to bring it forward and to impart that meaning into it.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

All right.

For those listening in or those who might read the blues, however many they may be, this does not require provinces to create a statutory holiday by any means.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

By any means and it would be grossly unfair for the federal government to try to take that jurisdiction from the provinces.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Do Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Ontario, and Quebec, the provinces that do have some legislation, but are not complete in offering days off to the schools and to employees, still have that jurisdiction?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Absolutely.

I would encourage those jurisdictions to take the time to have this conversation. In Manitoba and Nova Scotia they've both done their own thing and I think they should be applauded for that.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Okay.

What exactly do you mean by legal holiday as opposed to holiday, which is how it's currently identified, and what does the addition of the word “legal” import insofar as how we celebrate or commemorate Remembrance Day?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It's not going to change how we celebrate or commemorate Remembrance Day, but what it does is correct an error when the Holidays Act was originally passed that, by not having the word “legal” associated with Remembrance Day compared to Canada Day and Victoria Day, it didn't put them on the same level playing field.

Victoria Day is another good example; not every province recognizes Victoria Day. In Ontario I'd say we take it for granted in terms of it being a day off. In Quebec it's La journée des Patriotes, and some of the other provinces don't have it at all. Those are the decisions those jurisdictions have chosen to make themselves.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Chair, my questions have been answered satisfactorily.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Mr. Valeriote.

We'll now go to Mr. Young for up to seven minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Congratulations, Mr. Harris, on this initiative. I think your motivation is very admirable.

I've dealt with this issue before. I think it was either in 1998 or 1999 at the Legislative Assembly of Ontario when someone introduced a similar bill. At that time I took it to my legionnaires, my veterans, and I have done that again recently. The feedback from them has consistently been, “No, we want the children to be in school, and we're invited in to speak to them about the history and about how we earned the freedoms we all share”. They didn't support it for that reason.

I want to tell you about a letter we received from the Ontario Public School Boards' Association, and I'll just quote from it briefly:

It is strongly felt that school boards and the education sector are very effective at commemorating this important day with age-appropriate learning and appreciation activities. School boards are deeply concerned that this day would become a “vacation” for many and over time lose its significance and, for these reasons, we do not support such a change.

As a rhetorical question I'd just like to ask you, “What did you do on Victoria Day?” I can't remember what I did on Victoria Day, but for everybody I know it's a day off and they go to the cottage or they do fireworks. That's a sort of celebratory thing they do on the Sunday night, usually, but there is really minimal celebration of our longest-ruling monarch of the Commonwealth and the work that she did, and celebrating that is really minimal.

What are your thoughts about this concern that people would increasingly see it as just a day off?

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I would say to look to the six provinces and three territories where it is currently a statutory holiday. I don't think we've seen a lessening of the meaning there.

That kids should be in school and learning about this is the biggest swaying argument, I would say, in the other direction. But I don't think it's a one-or-the-other situation. Look at those school boards. What happens when Remembrance Day falls on a weekend and the schools are closed anyway? The schools hold their ceremonies on the last school day beforehand so they're still able to have the ceremonies and still impart the age-appropriate education.

I would argue that we would have opportunities to even improve it more if the ceremonies in the schools were not taking place on the 11th. The vast majority of veterans and Canadian Forces' members, and even reservists who have regular jobs, are not able to take time off on the 11th. They're not able to commemorate the way they'd like. If ceremonies were taking place in schools the day before, you'd actually have a lot more veterans available to go into schools, and we'd be able to improve the education of our children.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

You mentioned when the Ontario government introduced Family Day. I remember that, and I think it was part of their election platform—