Canadian Heritage Committee on April 22nd, 2015

[The Chair (Mr. Gordon Brown (Leeds—Grenville, CPC)), Conservative, Gord Brown]

Good afternoon, everyone. I call to order meeting number 41 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, November 5, 2014, today we will be dealing with Bill C-597, an act to amend the Holidays Act, regarding Remembrance Day.

For the first hour, we have with us three individuals. Wilma McNeill is with us here in the meeting room. By video conference we have, both as individuals, Donald Stewart, president of the veterans council at the Sunnybrook veterans centre, and Lieutenant-Colonel Michael Stevenson, retired.

Each of our three witnesses will have eight minutes.

We will start with Wilma McNeill. You have the floor for eight minutes.

[Wilma McNeill, As an Individual]

My name is Wilma McNeill, and I have fought a battle for 25 years to get the politicians in Ontario and Quebec to unite and honour our veterans for the sacrifice they made so we can live in a free democracy. Shouldn't the whole of Canada be in unison when it comes to honouring our veterans?

The Parliament of Canada must take the first step and show that it doesn’t consider Remembrance Day a lesser holiday.

This bill does not create a day off. Remembrance Day is already a statutory holiday, by virtue of its being in the Holidays Act, but is considered a lesser day, by the wording. Raising its status to that of Canada Day and Victoria Day does not create a day off. In fact, Victoria Day has the same status as that of Canada Day, yet there are four provinces that do not recognize that as a day off either.

I personally would love to see it as a day off, but that's not why we're here today. I have fought for the day off for over 25 years, ever since the Ontario government decided in 1989 that the liquor stores would remain open on November 11.

NDP MPP Howard Hampton said in a statement that the decision to have the liquor stores open was one of callous disrespect for the 60,000 Canadians who died in the 1914-18 war and the 42,000 who died in the Second World War. Conservative MP Ken James was also a big supporter. He signed the first petition, along with John Stewart, president of the Air Force Association. Interim Ontario PC leader, Andy Brandt, after receiving and presenting the first batch of nearly 2,000 signatures said, “Shut the stores for the day.”

After Bob Rae's NDP came to power on October 9, 1991, I received a letter from him saying the liquor stores would be closed on November 11. Of course, I was delighted and called the press. Unfortunately, his assistant called the liquor control office in Toronto and they informed him that the stores would be closed, but this was not the case. They had the wrong information. The premier did not even see my letter or the answer. It was signed by auto-pen. Following this, the headline in the local Gazette came out, “Elated Now Deflated”.

Then I moved my battle so that all the stores would be closed.

NDP MPPs Bob Huget and Ellen MacKinnon also supported my efforts.

Conservative MPP David Boushy introduced his private member's bill and on December 15, 1995, it passed second reading. Not one member spoke against it. I presented 5,000 cards to Mr. Boushy. I remember being in the legislature when it passed. Heartbreakingly, before Mike Harris called the election he told MPP Boushy not to bring it to third reading or he would defeat it. It died on the order paper.

MP Ronald MacDonald introduced two private members' bills regarding November 11. The first one the Conservatives defeated. Prime Minister Chrétien said the Conservatives were petty for doing so. Despite that comment, the Liberals defeated the second bill. No mention this time about Liberal pettiness, likely because they held a majority.

On October 25, 1994, I mailed 10,000 cards to Liberal Lawrence MacAulay, the then veterans affairs minister. He said he received 4,650. Liberal MP Roger Gallaway introduced Motion No. 298 in the House of Commons in May 2001, with 160 students from Maple Grove and their teacher Joe Bishara in attendance. They were hoping to meet with Prime Minister Chrétien, but that didn't happen. MP Gallaway did, however, meet with them.

Conservative MP Inky Mark introduced his private member's bill on September 26, 2006, seconded by our own Sarnia-Lambton MP Pat Davidson. I presented over 2,000 signatures to MP Pat in her office to be presented to Prime Minister Harper.

PC MPP Joe Tascona introduced his private member's bill on April 12, 2007. I again gathered more signatures, but no luck. PC MPP Bob Bailey took up the battle when he was elected and Shirley Kelly, president of the Air Force Association presented him with 5,000 cards on November 17, 2010. PC MPP Lisa MacLeod introduced her private member's bill on November 4, 2010, to make Remembrance Day a statutory holiday in Ontario. I gave her my support by making a statement for her campaign.

I have written to all incoming premiers and prime ministers across Canada. Positive comments overall have been received from them.

This has been a long journey for me. As you will note from my review, there are highs and some lows. I have remained consistent in my determination because it is such an important issue to be resolved. Family Day was adopted, but still remains very ambiguous. I agree with interim PC leader Jim Wilson that this day could be eliminated and Remembrance Day reinstated without any extra expense for anyone.

But we're not here to discuss a day off. That's truly up to the Ontario legislature.

Today we're here to support another PMB, which has been introduced by NDP MP Dan Harris. The bill is not about giving another day off, but it is instead to give the day the respect it deserves. It's an insult to veterans, young and old, that, by law, we still consider the one day a year that we honour them to be of lesser importance than Canada Day or Victoria Day. Without their sacrifice, Canada likely would have crumbled, and these other holidays would likely have disappeared.

I ask you to support the bill and finally give the veterans their just due and respect that they deserve. Last fall, Canadians united to honour Sergeant Vincent and Corporal Cirillo after their tragic deaths. I ask for all of Canada to unite once again. It is time to make this right, lest we forget.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much, Ms. McNeill.

We will now go by video conference to Toronto, where we will hear, for up to eight minutes, from Donald Stewart.

You have the floor.

[Donald Stewart, President, Veterans and Community Residents Council, Sunnybrook Veterans Centre, As an Individual]

My name is Don Stewart, and for those of you who don't know me, I'm the president of the Veterans and Community Residents Council at Sunnybrook Veterans Centre. On this very important day regarding Armistice Day, I am pleased to say a few words on behalf of the almost 500 veterans living at Sunnybrook.

Originally from British Columbia, I moved here to join a family. Sunnybrook's beautiful campus and veterans facility has been my home for the past six years. There is tremendous history at Sunnybrook, and I can think of no better place to be than the wonderful care, rich programming, and quality of life provided by Sunnybrook and Veterans Affairs Canada.

Along with currently serving as council president, I have been an active member of the Royal Canadian Legion for almost 70 years. It's hard to believe how quickly the years have passed. In 1945, after the war, immediately on my return to Canada I joined the Legion. Shortly before Armistice Day, I was at a ceremony at a local school with 800 children taking part in a remembrance program in the gymnasium. It moved me to see our youth engaged and so intent on learning the battles and our war history. It is my hope that the youth will carry on forever the message and pledge of the phrase, “Lest we forget”. This phrase is a promise to Canada's war veterans, as well as a pledge to learn and to never forget the lessons learned in two world wars and in the Korean War.

The majority of veterans I have spoken with at Sunnybrook are in favour of making Armistice Day a statutory holiday. By making Armistice Day a statutory holiday, this will underscore the importance of remembering all of the sacrifices that have been made for our country.

Thank you kindly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much.

We'll now hear from Lieutenant-Colonel Michael Stevenson.

You have the floor for up to eight minutes.

[LCol Michael Stevenson, Retired, As an Individual]

Thank you, sir.

Bonjour. Good afternoon to you all.

My interest in the armed forces goes back a long way and has given me a good deal of respect for November 11 and Remembrance Day.

After 20 years in the British Army starting with the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, I immigrated to Canada and served 27 years in the Canadian militia with the Queen's York Rangers in Toronto. As chief instructor of the military staff school I prepared majors for their promotion to lieutenant-colonel.

During this time I became very familiar and friendly with World War I, World War II, and Korean War veterans. Some World War I veterans shared our Christmas dinners and were guests in our house. When veterans had outlived their family and peer group, sometimes I would even arrange their funerals. As a member of the Fort York Branch of the Royal Canadian Legion and a 20-year volunteer three times a week with the Sunnybrook veterans hospital, I am still in close touch with veterans.

Only last week a 94-year-old veteran from the Queen's Own Rifles told me of the exploits on D-Day when they landed on Juno Beach. In a matter of minutes nearly 50 of his comrades were killed when they took their first steps against Nazi Germany in the cause of freedom and democracy. My friend survived the war and still considers it a miracle.

There are many stories like this, of loyal Canadians dedicated to their regiments and their country. These warriors were the heroes who made a tremendous contribution to Canada as the Vimy Foundation today is trying to tell us.

Very sadly, little history is taught in our schools any more, so most schoolchildren, especially new immigrants, have very limited knowledge about the service and heroism of our veterans on land, sea, and air during past wars, and the cause of justice and freedom. These exploits are the reason for a minute's silence on November 11.

Leading up to this silence is a great Royal Canadian Legion publicity effort. By selling poppies to a determined nation we will remember them. This silence is very dramatic and emotional and is best at the cenotaph at Ottawa with our country's leaders present and setting a fine example. Large numbers of veterans attend and our armed forces are well represented to add distinction to this memorable event.

These ceremonies take place across Canada in all the major cities and towns. For those too old to attend these events or separated by distance, there is always the opportunity to see the events at their best on TV, hopefully without advertising. In Toronto a very moving ceremony takes place not only at the City Hall cenotaph but also at Sunnybrook after elaborate planning for a spectacular event. There is even a flypast of vintage World War II aircraft. At the University of Toronto hundred of students attend the solemn ceremony at Soldiers' Tower, a truly impressive gathering of young people.

In the business world, which I survived for nearly 30 years, the event depends largely on their culture and leadership. Older companies that lost employees in the wars tend to make a better effort. Some businesses broadcast the last post and reveille combined with a minute's silence. Some quote In Flanders Fields, which is always impressive.

Some businessmen do very little, which is sad. Some employers take time off, perhaps as much as an hour to attend the local cenotaph ceremony. In my view the business world could do better with a little thought and imagination. With so many new immigrants in the workforce this would be a bonding experience to an important part of Canadian culture. The post office and banks take the day off, and it would be of interest to do a survey to find out what their employees actually do at 11 a.m. on November 11.

We have mentioned the lack of history in the school curriculum, and certain schools and education authorities could do a much better job of telling students what it is all about and planning a meaningful school ceremony with full attendance. Some schools do better than others, but my very recent inquiries indicate that private schools do a far better job for their students. Very often the teaching would regard any form of remembrance services as a glorification of war and do as little as possible.

Some churches, despite sacrifices made by former members of their congregations, give very little time or respect for November 11 or have services held on a Sunday nearest this date. However, some churches make a special effort, and a sermon, hymns, organ music, and the minute of silence all add together to make an inspiring service in memory of all those who died. Grace Church on-the-Hill in Toronto deserves a special mention.

When these events take place, all share a sense of purpose, communion, and participation in a solemn ritual at the 11th hour, lasting little time; and then we all disperse.

If it were a statutory holiday on November 11, would things be better? There is seldom a problem taking an hour out of a normal day, or even taking five minutes out of the workplace to quietly remember. But if there were a statutory holiday all those office workers, schoolchildren, and students might well be staying at home instead—perhaps even in bed. There's also the fear that a nationally mandated holiday would provide opportunities for ad hoc causes and sales events and other non-memorial activities.

Consideration should also be given to the economic effect of another holiday, particularly with small businesses which are struggling to survive as it is.

Of the 50-some friends whom I consulted over the last few days, there was a general feeling that there would be more to lose than to gain with Bill C-597.

The present system is not perfect and could and should be improved, especially in the public school system and by leaders in the public, academic, and business areas, by showing more leadership and inspiration. Most of us could wear a poppy—in fact, all of us could. Also, perhaps a national lottery could be organized by Veterans Affairs to support those who served and are in need, or whose families are in need.

My friends mostly share the views of Captain John Thompson, a former Queen's York Rangers officer and a director of the Royal Canadian Military Institute. He said that if there is to be legislation affecting November 11, he'd prefer it was to mandate something along the lines that all Canadians have the right to take an hour off from work to attend a nearby cenotaph ceremony or to give five minutes at work and reflect.

So might it be.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to the questions, and we will start with Mr. Young for seven minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses today for taking the trouble. We much appreciate Mrs. McNeill for travelling to Ottawa today, and gentlemen, for your time on the teleconferencing.

Retired Lieutenant-Colonel Michael Stevenson, I was very intrigued by what you just said. Also, I have to tell you that the vast majority of my veterans in Oakville, whom I've spoken to in the past on this issue, both recently and as a member of provincial Parliament when Dave Boushy introduced his bill, have taken your position.

But you had an idea there that was intriguing, and that is to allow people time off work, as necessary, to attend a ceremony, or to take five minutes of personal time to have their own personal memorial—and I'm just paraphrasing what you said. It occurred to me that there is a precedent for that, and that is on voting days employers are required to give people time to vote if they're otherwise working.

I wonder if you could expand on that idea a little bit, perhaps. Also, you talked about more leadership on how to celebrate our veterans' service and remembrance and to practise Remembrance Day if it just remains as it is now.

[LCol Michael Stevenson]

I think that, particularly in the towns, there's usually a church with a memorial outside or a cenotaph quite near to allow those who wish to go outside and stand by the cenotaph. Often it's involved in some Christian ceremony. Those who don't want to do that can stay in the office for five minutes and have something a little bit more than just the last post, or reveille, or an announcement.

In my own company, which is a big insurance company in Toronto, they played the last post over the speaker system for the whole company, over 1,000 people, and a minute's silence. Then a piper played the Lament and then they had the reveille. It was very moving and everybody stopped work and just thought for a few minutes. I know that in Israel, when they have the Holocaust commemoration, the whole of Israel comes to a grinding halt and for two minutes no traffic moves, nothing. They all respect that two minutes of thought for what happened in the past. My experience with a big insurance company was the two minutes of silence, even in the building, meant a lot. A lot of people were involved, nobody moved around, and those who wished went across the road to St. Paul's church, a fine old church, and had the cenotaph service as well.

It depends upon the leadership. If the leadership wants to bond people together in a company to make it a great company, the president, the CEO, and the board of directors have to say, “Gentlemen and ladies, we have to do something about this. We have to do something about this to remember all these sacrifices that people made, including people who were in own company”, and instigate an orchestrated, well-planned small event. Use a bit of initiative and imagination. If anybody wants a bit of helping doing it, I'll certainly tell them. If Margaret Thatcher were in charge of things here, she would mandate it. You only have to see the ceremony in London, or the Queen present, to see what a magnificent event it is, and indeed in Ottawa as well.

It can be done, but in companies, in businesses, and in schools things have to be done better to teach people about this event and why we hold it for two special minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much.

Gentlemen, I wanted to also thank you both for your service before I go further along.

Mr. Stewart, thank you for your testimony. This is a difficult issue for parliamentarians because everyone in Parliament wants to honour our veterans and we would like to find better ways to do that. The question is how to do that.

Currently, many of our veterans visit the schools, the public schools, and even some of the high schools. They explain the horrors of war to children, many of whom never forget it. They inculcate those values and the cost of freedom, which is an invaluable lesson.

Do you have any concerns that if the schools were closed they wouldn't be able to do that?

[Donald Stewart]

We have on a weekly basis different schools coming to Sunnybrook and bringing these students. There are as many as 10 or sometimes even 15 veterans. They sit there and talk to three or four of the schoolchildren, and the kids are asking questions about the war and different things. I've noticed going to the different schools, over and above those at Sunnybrook, that most of the schools here would love to be able to go to the cenotaph. Some of the veterans that I have talked to at Sunnybrook and across Canada agree with the same thing, that schoolchildren are the ones now that have to carry on as the future generation of this country.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

If Remembrance Day were a holiday, would the schoolchildren go to the cenotaph or would they sometimes sleep in or sometimes go to the shopping mall or sometimes go away with their parents for a mini-vacation? That's the question we're trying to answer.

[Donald Stewart]

Yes, I know it's a tough one to answer. The way I see it, if it's promoted the right way, I'm quite sure that the kids would attend. I've noticed since being at Sunnybrook each year it gets bigger and bigger. There were 1,600 people there this year at the memorial.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Nantel and Mr. Harris. You have seven minutes.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'll speak in English now as it will be simpler.

I first want to tell you how touched I am when I hear the witnesses and their stories. Both Mr. Stewart and Mr. Stevenson, and Mrs. McNeill as well, you remind me so much of my section 266 of the Legion in Boucherville, in trying to evoke the sacrifice you made and evoke, through your connections to the local Legions, the intention to ensure that we don't forget and that all your colleagues, even though they're non-active, are well supported and well remembered. All this you have tried to instill in the kids today, that the best way to salute your efforts and your sacrifices is to get involved and do good in society.

Mrs. McNeill, I can see from here that you still have your volunteer pin you received from the Governor General. Clearly, you guys send a great message. I am not a specialist on the issue, as my friend Dan Harris is here, but I wanted to say how much it's appreciated. I think we all have to find a good way to be in solidarity and have the good intention to make the best response we can to you in a parliamentary way.

While I have the floor, I would like to make sure that the study on the film industry will be on the committee's agenda, so that there is at least an interim report. I am quite worried. I see time passing and I am afraid that the testimony we heard on the film industry will go unheeded. I would like us to discuss a solution, so that we do not see a repeat of what happened to the report on the digital era in Canada, which disappeared into oblivion in 2011, before the election. That is what concerns me.

I now yield the floor to Mr. Harris.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Nantel.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your presentations and for coming today.

Thank you, Ms. McNeill, for coming here.

I'll start very quickly with Mr. Stewart.

It's a fantastic community at Sunnybrook. Certainly, the spirit will never be lost there. My great-grandfather, Harold Riley, and my great-uncle, William, or Bill, Riley, were both among Sunnybrook's earliest patients when it opened shortly after the Second World War.

Mr. Stewart, you said you support a statutory holiday for Remembrance Day, but you do understand that this bill doesn't, in fact, do that. Is that correct?

[Donald Stewart]

I understand.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]...to ask any of the witnesses. I know Mr. Harris went down this road on Monday.

I don't know if Mr. Harris has checked out his website recently but when he refers to this bill he actually states, “Make Remembrance Day a National Statutory Holiday for All Canadians!”

If you're going to ask people what they think and whether your bill is statutory or not, you shouldn't mislead them. You said it 11 times in your speech on November 3, in Hansard. It's recorded right here, your speech. If you look at it, I don't know, maybe you changed it last night, but this is what it was last night. I don't think it's really fair to be putting witnesses on the spot and asking them a question that you, yourself, obviously don't know the answer to because of what your website says and what you've said in your speech on November 3.

[A voice]

Mr. Chair, this sounds like debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Okay. Mr. Harris, please.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

Certainly, whether I desire to have it as a statutory holiday or not is actually separate from what the bill itself states. All the bill does is elevate Remembrance Day to the same status as Canada Day and Victoria Day, the other two holidays listed in the Holidays Act. That is the one simple change and it seems to me that the other side, after having voted for it, seems to want to add all this confusion.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. I'd like you to rule on this.

Mr. Harris can have his opinions. I understand that. I have no issues with that. The point he is making, about whether or not people on this side of the committee table are going to support the bill, it is up to them individually.

What I will say is that you cannot make statements and claims in speeches and on your website about your specific bill, and then come in here and indicate you don't actually have that position or that's not what your bill represents. He's misleading witnesses with respect to the bill. If he wants to do what he's saying, that's fine. But I don't think he should put witnesses in the position of having to state or claim what his bill means, because he certainly wants his bill to become a national statutory holiday for all Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dykstra.

While I appreciate your views on this, Mr. Harris does have the right to use the time as he wishes. If he does what you say he's doing, that is up to him.

Mr. Harris.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

On that point, even though I disagreed with your ruling on Monday, you did rule on this specific issue that is was a matter for debate, so both those points of order, I think, fell under that.

Ms. McNeill, you have explained how hard you fought over the years for this day off, and then explained that this bill doesn't do that.

Why then do you still support the bill?